texie
Senior Member
- Location
- Fort Collins, Colorado
- Occupation
- Electrician, Contractor, Inspector
Judging by the rest of this mess I just wonder what the details of that transformer I see look like.
Ag wiring
- Thread starter ptonsparky
- Start date
- Status
synchro
Senior Member
- Location
- Chicago, IL
- Occupation
- EE
For the Y-12 Calutrons that enriched uranium in the Manhattan Project they used silver for the coils and busbars because copper was in such short supply (it was needed for brass shells and many other uses).
So they borrowed nearly 14,000 tons of silver (400 million Troy ounces) from the Treasury .
The bullion bars were rolled by Allis Chalmers in Milwaukee into the required coils and busbars for the Calutrons in the massive Y-12 complex. Initially there were secrecy concerns but they just told the workers that it was a new silvery alloy. There was such a massive amount of it that they never suspected it was actually real silver.
texie
Senior Member
- Location
- Fort Collins, Colorado
- Occupation
- Electrician, Contractor, Inspector
Wow, ptonsparky just wanted comments on a sloppy installation and is getting a lesson on the history of gold silver.
ptonsparky
Tom
- Occupation
- EC - retired
This way I learn something new everyday!
Fortunately this is not a NEC requirement, it may be a local requirement in some areas, Article 409 still contains 'construction specifications' for allowing us to build them without being subjected to the extraordinary cost of getting 508A listed.
There seems to be an active campaign to remove 'construction specifications' from the NEC and force us to buy expensive UL standards instead.
hillbilly1
Senior Member
- Location
- North Georgia mountains
- Occupation
- Owner/electrical contractor
Hmmmm, a good chunk of the code is written by manufactures, what would they gain by that........
ramsy
Roger Ruhle dba NoFixNoPay
- Location
- LA basin, CA
- Occupation
- Service Electrician 2020 NEC
Part III. Construction Specifications for 409.100 Enclosures, refers us to Table 110.28, where Note No. 2: (describes) Ingress protection (IP) ratings (from) ANSI/IEC 60529, Degrees of Protection Provided by Enclosures.
Are you saying, "in industrial establishments only, where conditions of maintenance and supervision ensure that only qualified persons will service the installation", empty 3R listed boxes, and listed control components are not subject to any further NEC 110.3(c), NTRL, and OSHA requirements.
If so, AHJ authorization per NEC 90.7, 110.2, 110.3 probably falls to plant managers and owners, held liable where insurance claims are denied, similar to language in the latest code cycle of NFPA-70E.
ptonsparky
Tom
- Occupation
- EC - retired
Now I see it...PFC capacitor. Not required for this area, another extra.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
How do you know that?
I bet it likely is listed.
The definite purpose contactor was field added and probably questionable, but the inspectors typically let us do that around here. It is used as a control relay to automatically control the well when the irrigation machine is calling for it to run. Well pump panel typically has 480 volt coil.
You mentioned transformer and had me wondering what you were seeing - what is in image that could maybe be mistaken for a transformer I'm pretty certain is a power factor correction capacitor.
ptonsparky
Tom
- Occupation
- EC - retired
We need to add stuff to that already full pump panel as well.
ramsy
Roger Ruhle dba NoFixNoPay
- Location
- LA basin, CA
- Occupation
- Service Electrician 2020 NEC
Op in #1 made Request for Criticism (RFC), which comes before inspection. The rest was WAG
Thanks for sharing that your local AHJ's are OK with similar custom-control panels.
Texie in #21 mentioned the transformer, probably looking at tiny images in #1
ptonsparky
Tom
- Occupation
- EC - retired
Kwire May have irrigation inspections in his area. Some area POCOs will not provide power unless they are. Anything goes in my area, obviously.
Your in Nebraska so i dont know what the local NEC requires but
Just looking around the code say further down at;
410.6 Listing Required. "All luminaires, lampholders, and ret-
rofit kits shall be listed."
then
411.4 Listing Required...
There would be a clear indication that 409 panels need to be listed, and that would be a sad day for electricians.
Just looking around the code say further down at;
410.6 Listing Required. "All luminaires, lampholders, and ret-
rofit kits shall be listed."
then
411.4 Listing Required...
There would be a clear indication that 409 panels need to be listed, and that would be a sad day for electricians.
ramsy
Roger Ruhle dba NoFixNoPay
- Location
- LA basin, CA
- Occupation
- Service Electrician 2020 NEC
Did not see if op has a control panel label per 409.110 Marking 1-7
ptonsparky
Tom
- Occupation
- EC - retired
The larger is a Pump Panel and would meet those requirements. The smaller would as well but is not intended for use as service equipment. It requires a “System Disconnect” ahead of it which usually ends up being the PP.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
I don't see what 410 or 411 have to do with this installation.
The panels in question are listed. There are accessory items that are not supplied but are included in the listing instructions.
With the well pump panels inspector typically only allow to only add items that are directly associated with controlling that pump, like the definite purpose contactor in OP photos and splicing blocks for adding the power factor capacitor - in OP photos they doubled the capacitor leads under load side lugs with motor leads - most pump panels don't have provisions to add second set of conductors to the load side terminals so you must have some way to connect them. Taps to the center pivot or fertilizer injection pump - need to be outside the pump panel. What would be typical here is the incoming conductors (usually service conductors) land in a terminal box, you then go to two to six service disconnecting means, the pump panel is suitable for use only as service equipment (in most cases). Anything not SUSE would need a service disconnect ahead of it. The smaller panel in OP (I have worked with many of those myself) is SUSE so you could run directly to it as well. You then need control wires between the two to interlock controls (don't want the irrigation machine to stop running and keep pumping water, don't want the well to stop running and keep moving the irrigation machine). But you can not run them through the raceways enclosing the service conductors - though I see this quite often - even when it should have been inspected.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
The rural POCO that serves a lot of the area I typically work in does not energize any new service over 250 volts without having a permit/inspection, even otherwise state exempt agriculture services. All the others around here do not do this though.
They used to do it by throwing in a permit application with all the other paperwork they have for customer when applying for service. By having done that it became an ower requested inspection. I had received correction notices in the past for work I didn't know I did because customer put my business name on their application. Recent years they just expect owner or contractor to apply. Contractors familiar with this POCO know this and automatically apply. Same for grain storage sites with 480 volt service or even a dairy barn or something like that with new 480 volt service.
ptonsparky
Tom
- Occupation
- EC - retired
I've done the two to six disconnects in the past when I had control of the project start to finish. That will disappear this year with the 20 going into play.. I am the third contractor on this job.
those were examples of articles that require stuff to be listed. As I pointed out a article 409 industrial control panel does not need to be field certified or listed.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
Two to six disconnects still will be allowed- they just can't be in the same enclosure or compartment in things like switchboards.
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