AIC rating panelboard / motor loads

Status
Not open for further replies.

kjrise

Member
I have 208/120v 3p4w panel 65kaic fully rated with a 400amp breaker feeding a 400amp MLO panel with 8 RTU 50amp motorloads.
Can I series rate the branch panel or do I need to fully rate?
Can I get by with series rating the panel but up sizing the RTU breakers at a higher AIC to meet code?
 

templdl

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
Re: AIC rating panelboard / motor loads

From what you have described with regard to using a series rated panel one word of caution is that any panel applied with the intent of series rating be tested and listed by UL for use in a series application. You can't mix and match or assume.
Also, it is of my opinion that it is possible to avoid the application of fully rated panels should you get a system fault study done be someone qualified to do so. Such a person has the where with all to review the distribution system from the point of service entrance to each load to determine the fault current available at each point in the distribution system. Cable sizes, panel, motor and other inductive load contributions are all taken into consideration when doing this study. A good fault system study can uncover weak points in a distribution system.
With such documentation you may apply devices that have the KAIC and withstand ratings as would be determined in each point in the distribution system. To do otherwise would be Russian roulette.
Fault system studies are often commissioned be industrial and commercial facilities because their services have been updated and other parts of their distributions systems have changed over the years which may have ended up throwing their system coordination way out of wack. The scary part is that everything is OK as long as nothing goes wrong.
 

jim dungar

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
PE (Retired) - Power Systems
Re: AIC rating panelboard / motor loads

You need to be aware of the implication of motors on series ratings. Off the top of my head, I feel your 50A motor loads will be too large.
 

ron

Senior Member
Re: AIC rating panelboard / motor loads

The MLO panel iteslf typically takes on the withstand value of the lowest rated AIC breaker installed.
Does the 65kAIC fully rated panelboard serve other motor loads too, in addition to the motors that will be served by your new MLO subpanel? If so, then you can't use series ratings, see 240.86(B)
 

kjrise

Member
Re: AIC rating panelboard / motor loads

The MDP will not have any other motor loads.
I'm trying to have the branch panel with 10kaic fully rated breakers expect for the motor loads.
Put higher rated 22kaic fully rated breakers in there for the RTU's. This will save money if I don't have to fill the whole panel with the higher rated breakers?
 

templdl

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
Re: AIC rating panelboard / motor loads

kjrise,
You still have not stated what the available fault current is at the main breaker or main lugs of the subject panel. You're post question kaic rating but you have failed to include any available fault current values. Everything is just conjecture so far and not a good thng to do when it comes to safe electrical applications.
 

ron

Senior Member
Re: AIC rating panelboard / motor loads

The entire subpanel must be either fully rated at 65kAIC or series rated at 65kAIC. Not a combination.
You need to find the manufacturer and model number of the 400A breaker in the main panel, then have your supplier find a series rated panel (the whole thing with distribution/branch breakers) that are ul listed as series rated with that 400A upstream breaker. Be sure that if you go series rated, you need to label both the source and sub panel with that information.
 

ron

Senior Member
Re: AIC rating panelboard / motor loads

In addition, is the 52kA the fault available at the main panel? If so, the fault available at the sub may be less, thus requiring a lower AIC rating for the sub.
 
Re: AIC rating panelboard / motor loads

Since you have motor loads, I would suggest reviewing 240.86(C) for Series Ratings with Motor Contribution. It depends on where they are connected in the system and the sum of the full load currents.
Also, by Series Ratings, you will not achieve any level of Selective Coordination in that part of the system.
 

jim dungar

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
PE (Retired) - Power Systems
Re: AIC rating panelboard / motor loads

Selectivity needs to be defined basedon specific conditions.

It is not true that series ratings always means there is no selective coordination.

For example coordination is maintained if:
1: PNL-1 is fed from PNL-MDP
2: Fault current at the main lugs of PNL1 is 18kA
3: 10kAIC breakers are chosen for PNL1 using a series rating of 22kA with the breaker in PNL-MDP
4: A fault of 400A occurs on the load side of a PNL1 breaker

And regardless of what the fuse manufactures say, their systems are not always fully selectively coordinated either. Have you ever tried to coordinate a service entrance ground fault relay with any fuse greater than 100A?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top