Aiding or abetting

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jwelectric

jwelectric

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North Carolina
I wonder what is meant by this:

87-47. Penalties imposed by Board; enforcement procedures.

(a1) The following activities are prohibited:

(1) Offering to engage or engaging in electrical contracting without being licensed.

(2) Selling, transferring, or assigning a license, regardless of whether for a fee.

(3) Aiding or abetting an unlicensed person, partnership, firm, or corporation to offer to engage or to engage in electrical contracting.

This can be found here
[URL="http://www.ncbeec.org/chapter87.htm[/URL]

I understand that many other states have a similar law.

Would giving ?How-To? advice fall under this?
 
Before anyone else tries to find the quoted article in your own copy of the NEC, as I briefly did, it taint there! This is a North Carolina State Law. :rolleyes:

It means you can?t help another person (or company) run an electrical contracting business without their having a license. Giving ?how to? advice to a person who wants to do their own work at their own home is not covered by that statement. But if an unlicensed person says he is getting paid to install a circuit at his neighbor?s house, and if you give him advice on how to do the installation, then I would say you will have violated that article.
 
charlie b said:
Before anyone else tries to find the quoted article in your own copy of the NEC, as I briefly did, it taint there! This is a North Carolina State Law. :rolleyes:

It means you can?t help another person (or company) run an electrical contracting business without their having a license. Giving ?how to? advice to a person who wants to do their own work at their own home is not covered by that statement. But if an unlicensed person says he is getting paid to install a circuit at his neighbor?s house, and if you give him advice on how to do the installation, then I would say you will have violated that article.
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What if an unlicensed electrician offers to wire a persons home for free ?
 
Jim W in Tampa said:
What if an unlicensed electrician offers to wire a persons home for free ?
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Well, I'm neither a lawyer nor a North Carolina resident, but I would not call that "contracting."
 
charlie b said:

Well, I'm neither a lawyer nor a North Carolina resident, but I would not call that "contracting."
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OK now let me add the other half of the deal.I simply agree to wire your house free of charge for labor with the condition that you buy all the material from me for a preagreed amount of dollars.
 
Now I would say that you would have entered the realm of contracting. I don't think you need a piece of paper to establish a contract. So that would be a violation of the state law, IMO.

Now Mike, would you be willing to share your reason for the question? :)
 
charlie b said:
Now Mike, would you be willing to share your reason for the question? :)
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It was a question that came up at a Continuing Education class that my class attended. I was amazed at the response that came from the instructor.

To willingly give advice to someone that you know is doing an illegal installation would be helping or aiding and abetting that person.

From here the discussion turned more toward the use of a 1099 to pay employees would constitute contracting without a license and both the license holder and the employee would be guilty but his first response caught me off guard.
I was wondering what the consensus would be here. I also have a student that is looking at the different opinions.

Personally I must agree with the instructor and Charlie
charlie b said:
Giving ?how to? advice to a person who wants to do their own work at their own home is not covered by that statement. But if an unlicensed person says he is getting paid to install a circuit at his neighbor?s house, and if you give him advice on how to do the installation, then I would say you will have violated that article.
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To make a publication of a how-to manual would be for someone that wanted to make his/her own installation not toward the handyman although some handymen will contract using knowledge gained from a how-to publication.
 
Looking at it this way might make Mike Holt guilty.Often his courses are used by guys that are not licensed.But then that is the purpose behind them.Is he guilty ? I think not.
 
Jim, the key is this sentence;
To willingly give advice to someone that you know is doing an illegal installation would be helping or aiding and abetting that person.
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IMO if you knowingly help anyone do something illegal you are part of it.

Helping students or bona fide employees of licensed individuals are in no way aiding some one in doing an illegal activity.

Roger
 
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Jim W in Tampa said:
What if an unlicensed electrician offers to wire a persons home for free ?
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Jim, a lot depends on how the laws in your own state are written. Under basic law, not receiving payment means there was no "consideration" and thus no contract. However, here in NJ (for example) contract or no contract, if you are caught performing electrical work without a license and/or a business permit the fine for a first offense is $1,000.00 (and that's considered a slap on the wrist).
Jim W in Tampa said:
OK now let me add the other half of the deal.I simply agree to wire your house free of charge for labor with the condition that you buy all the material from me for a preagreed amount of dollars.
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Now you have "consideration" for the contract but you still don't have a license or business permit.
 
I don't think the publisher of a book is responsible for the actions of a person who reads the book and goes on (with or without having gained a benefit from the book) to do something illegal. But in today's environment of "would you like a lawsuit with your french fries," it is probably wise to include a statement in the book that somehow conveys the message of "don't go doing something you ought not do." I don't have any of Mike's training books handy, so I can't say if he includes any such statement.
 
I think we are misinterpreting the issue here. We have that law on our books also. It is put there mostly to try to halt the hiring of unlicensed sub contractors by licensed contractors, not to punish those who offer "advise", which if you think about it, vocational school teachers do all day long. So IMHO, you break no law when you advice a DIY'r, (as a businessman, you are breaking my personal laws, but that is another story) you break the law when you hire an unlicensed painter to paint your house, or worse yet you hire an unlicensed painter to sub the painting on a house you are building for a customer. Stuff like that.
 
But if you are doing the work for free, in what sense are you being "hired"? I would call that doing a favor for a buddy, not being hired by the buddy.
 
macmikeman said:
I think we are misinterpreting the issue here. We have that law on our books also. It is put there mostly to try to halt the hiring of unlicensed sub contractors by licensed contractors, not to punish those who offer "advise", which if you think about it, vocational school teachers do all day long. So IMHO, you break no law when you advice a DIY'r, (as a businessman, you are breaking my personal laws, but that is another story) you break the law when you hire an unlicensed painter to paint your house, or worse yet you hire an unlicensed painter to sub the painting on a house you are building for a customer. Stuff like that.
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The law makes provisions for education and educational material as outlined below.

87-43.1. Exceptions.
The provisions of this Article shall not apply:
(6) To the installation, construction, maintenance or repair of electrical wiring, devices, appliances or equipment by State institutions and private educational institutions which maintain a private electrical department;

If I understand what is being said it would be a violation of the law to give advise to someone who you know is doing an illegal installation.
 
charlie b said:
But if you are doing the work for free, in what sense are you being "hired"? I would call that doing a favor for a buddy, not being hired by the buddy.
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I don't make the laws, I just quote 'em (MN statute 326.242, Subd. 6):
Except as otherwise provided by law, no person other than an employee, partner, or officer of a licensed contractor, as defined in section 326.01, subdivision 5, shall undertake or offer to undertake to plan for, lay out, supervise or install to make additions, alterations, or repairs in the installation of electrical wiring, apparatus, and equipment for light, heat, power, and other purposes with or without compensation unless the person obtains a contractor's license.​
You can still be "hired" if your rate is $0/hour.
 
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That section cannot possibly apply to how-to books, manuals, website blogs, or message board posts. If it did, it would be limiting free speech, and would therefore be unconstitutional.

It is certainly aimed at one licensed person helping another unlicensed contractor in some direct manner with full knowledge that he is unlicensed and will conduct the work.
 
In Washington state a licensed electrican can help a friend, relative or other if the electrican gets no compensation.
It works well when some one wants you to help them wire a house, you say, well I can't take money, and I know you don't want me to work for free.

And we have a separate law for volunteer work for non profits such as a church. The non profit can pull the permit and licensed electricians or trainees are required to do the work.
 
tom baker said:
In Washington state a licensed electrican can help a friend, relative or other if the electrican gets no compensation.
It works well when some one wants you to help them wire a house, you say, well I can't take money, and I know you don't want me to work for free.

And we have a separate law for volunteer work for non profits such as a church. The non profit can pull the permit and licensed electricians or trainees are required to do the work.
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That would not float here as a church is a commercial building.Only home owners are exempt here.But word of mouth could easily land you a homeowner that drops some cash on the floor to get help with his wiring.Also there is a thing called bartering,i did that several times in exchange for plastering and stuco work.They need proof that the guy was paid and that just wont likely happen when green cash is used.
 
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