AL/CU change

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ashtrak

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Was wondering what the going rate was for al/cu (recept./switch) splicing/change over. Realizing all the conditions are not the same i.e.,painted plates, bad receptacles, broken wires, furniture and appliance moving. So much for going rate!! I'll be using the wire nut method. I'm thinking $16.00 per outlet/switch. Which seems low when there are multiple ganged switches. Any suggestions for pricing. Also, are the lighting outlets usually not included due to minimal loads at the terminations? Any thoughts appreciated. Thanks
 
ashtrak,

Please, please, please, do not do this job. You obvioulsy have a lot to learn.

First of all, the purple wire nut method has been proven to be as dangerous if not more than the original wiring. This is because the compound inside the wire nut is flammable. Those wire nuts are for TEMPORARY repairs only!

Secondly, EVERY termination in the home should be repaired. If you leave one termination unrepaired, you have not resolved the problem with the aluminum wiring in the home. That could be the one termination that fails. So this now includes all recepts, lights, switches, dishwasher, disposal, water heater, A/C unit, range hood fan, recessed lighting, junction boxes in the attic, and all other terminations.

Thirdly, aluminum wiring is very delicate. If you haven't worked with it before, you must take great care in both stripping and splicing the wire. Even a small knick in the wire may be a point for future failure.

Fourthly, I imagine that you will be attempting this without a permit and given the information above, you will be putting the homeowner and yourself at a great liability if your "repairs" were to fail. Someone could be seriously injured or killed, then if you are lucky, only a lawyer (not a city prosecutor) will be showing up at your door to tell you all what you did wrong.

Lastly, well I won't even get into your pricing strategy.

Please think again about this repair. Let a professional that is experienced in the repair of aluminum wiring upgrade this home.
 
Ideal 65...

Ideal 65...

romexking said:
...First of all, the purple wire nut method has been proven to be as dangerous if not more than the original wiring. This is because the compound inside the wire nut is flammable. Those wire nuts are for TEMPORARY repairs only! ....
Click to expand...

What documentation are you using for this statement?
 
MY GOD Romexking

MY GOD Romexking

MY GOD man, you scared the dog doo doo out of me. I took my license off the wall, and cancelled my liability. I thought I had some kind of idea of what I was doing. I started my apprenticeship in 1970 and have had a license for a few years.I didn't have any idea what a dummy I was. Thank you.
 
romexking said:
First of all, the purple wire nut method has been proven to be as dangerous if not more than the original wiring. This is because the compound inside the wire nut is flammable. Those wire nuts are for TEMPORARY repairs only!
Click to expand...
Says who?
I hope you have documentation to support your claim.

Here's my documentation that is contrary to yours:
Compliance Verification Document
Dated 10/18/2000



If you check out http://www.inspect-ny.com/aluminum/twistcpsc.htm , they DO indicate an issue with the Ideal 65's - HOWEVER, this document is dated 7/101998

A quick search at http://recalls.gov/index.html revealed NO issue.



I don't know where you got your information from.
I wish you would share it with the group before yelling FIRE.
 
celtic said:
Says who?
I hope you have documentation to support your claim.

Here's my documentation that is contrary to yours:
Compliance Verification Document
Dated 10/18/2000



If you check out http://www.inspect-ny.com/aluminum/twistcpsc.htm , they DO indicate an issue with the Ideal 65's - HOWEVER, this document is dated 7/101998

A quick search at http://recalls.gov/index.html revealed NO issue.



I don't know where you got your information from.
I wish you would share it with the group before yelling FIRE.
Click to expand...

He may be right,

It may be he got that information from the insert, that comes in the package with the wire nuts, which information is correct the web site, or the manufactures instructions packaged with the wire nut?

Let me look in one of the trucks and see if I can find the instructions.
 
Ideal Cover...

Ideal Cover...

satcom said:
He may be right,

It may be he got that information from the insert, that comes in the package with the wire nuts, which information is correct the web site, or the manufactures instructions packaged with the wire nut?

Let me look in one of the trucks and see if I can find the instructions.
Click to expand...

This just came off my truck. I purchased this pack in 2006. I don't see anything about not being permanent.
 
1793 said:
This just came off my truck. I purchased this pack in 2006. I don't see anything about not being permanent.
Click to expand...

Now get an insert from 2005 package, your right the new package does not have the same instructions, and another package has different instructions, looks like they have been making changes.

The CPSC still recommends them as temporary, I would not want to try to explain in a court case, that other testing, put the product in question. If fo no other reason that the 5 year limited warent on the product, may make it temporary in a court decision. Risky Business.

When we used them, we indicated in writing that it was a temporary repair.
 
Last edited:
This is what I have always been aware of...The reports are indeed older, but I expect that the following website would have updated their information (as they did concerning the King alumicon product) if there was new information.

http://www.inspect-ny.com/aluminum/ideal65.htm

Independent Test Lab Results - Ideal 65 Twister
Splices made with this connector are not capable of long-term safe performance as part as part of the permanent wiring of existing aluminum wired homes. The results of independent testing were presented at the IEEE Holm Conference on Electric Contact Phenomena in Philadelphia Oct.20. Copies are available from the IEEE library (908-562-3974). Title of paper is "Evaluation of a Twist-on Connector for Aluminum Wire," by J. Aronstein.
Note also that field failures (overheating, burnouts) of these connectors in actual service as pigtailing "repair" in existing aluminum wired residential structures have now been reported.
Documents provided under the Freedom of Information Act, describe independent testing of the Ideal 65 "Twister" purple twist-on connector marketed for certain retrofit repairs of aluminum electrical wiring.
 
and this is Ideal's response:

October 18,2000
The IDEAL Model #65 TWISTER? AL/CU Wire Connector, when used in accordance with the instructions included with the product provides a safe, effective, legal, and permanent solution to the problem of connecting copper conductors to existing aluminum branch circuit wiring.
The IDEAL Model #65 TWISTER? AL/CU Connector complies with the N.E.C. Section 110-14b for aluminum to copper connections, and Federal Specification W-S-610E, is UL 486C Listed, UL 467 Listed, UL 94V-2 flame rated, CSA C22.2 #188 Certified, and rated 105”C” (221”F”) for use in all branch circuit and fixture splicing applications.
These approvals have been in full-uninterrupted force since the day the connector was introduced and remain intact today. For further information please contact IDEAL INDUSTRIES INC. at 1-800-435-0705.
Sincerely
IDEAL INDUSTRIES INC.
 
I keep finding new stuff...The purple wirenuts are only listed to accept #12 aluminum, therefore you would not be able to use it in many locations in a home.


Item ID: 30-265
Name: Twister? Al/Cu (Box of 100)

Features: Aluminum-to-Copper connector provides a secure connection while preventing aluminum corrosion
Specially formulated corrosion-resistant compound provides cooler connections and increased conductivity
Accepts 1 #12 Al sol. w/ 1 #18 Cu AWG min. and 1 #10
Swept-wing design for comfort

Live-action, square-wire spring
Hexagonal shape for standard nutdriver
No pre-twisting required
UL Listed and CSA Certified
Shell rated for 105? C
Flame-retardant shell
 
romexking said:
I keep finding new stuff...The purple wirenuts are only listed to accept #12 aluminum, therefore you would not be able to use it in many locations in a home.


Item ID: 30-265
Name: Twister? Al/Cu (Box of 100)

Features: Aluminum-to-Copper connector provides a secure connection while preventing aluminum corrosion
Specially formulated corrosion-resistant compound provides cooler connections and increased conductivity
Accepts 1 #12 Al sol. w/ 1 #18 Cu AWG min. and 1 #10
Swept-wing design for comfort

Live-action, square-wire spring
Hexagonal shape for standard nutdriver
No pre-twisting required
UL Listed and CSA Certified
Shell rated for 105? C
Flame-retardant shell
Click to expand...

This is getting intresting, I just found an older package in the shop, It has different instructions on the package, from early 2002.
 
granted that most of my documentation is from the same website, however I do consider them an authority on aluminum wiring repair.

More info concerning twister #65 UL approval

As soon as it appeared on the market, the Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) questioned UL's listing of this connector for the aluminum wire pigtailing wire combinations. Although the manufacturer claims that the connector has been thoroughly tested for the application, neither the manufacturer or UL have released any substantive test data. The manufacturer states that the connector has received CSA certification for the same wire combinations. Information developed so far indicates the following:

- After its introduction, the manufacturer's manager of engineering stated (to CPSC) that the Ideal #65 is not intended for use in the pigtailing retrofit application, but only for such applications as connecting lighting fixtures and ceiling fans. Ideal committed to CPSC to change its advertising and instructional information accordingly, but did not follow through on that commitment.

- UL did not independently perform the "heat-cycle" life tests required by their standard. These tests were performed by the manufacturer, with UL accepting the manufacturer's results.

- The connector was not "heat-cycle" tested for the common pigtailing wire combinations with current passing through the aluminum-aluminum wire path (in an aluminum-aluminum-copper splice).

- The "heat-cycle" tests that were performed by the manufacturer on the Ideal #65 "Twister" connector were not done using aluminum wire of the type actually installed in homes built in the 1960's and early 1970's.

- The CSA certification was based on UL's acceptance for listing. CSA did not independently evaluate the Ideal #65 connector. In fact, the use of a zinc-plated steel spring in the connector violates a CSA general requirement for connectors for aluminum wiring.

- Both the plastic insulator of the connection and the inhibitor compound inside the connector ignite readily and burn freely. This increases the chance of fire ignition if connection failure occurs
 
Or you can get ripped off by AMP the ONLY ONE THAT MAKES THE GOOD LONG LASTING CONNECTION. Whatever, Amp wants like $700 just to train you to use the system they have, then I understand it's $120 a month to rent, not buy the tooling, they don't sell the tools, and from what I understand from speaking with one of the only three certified installers in NJ once you return the tools, it's next to impossible to get them back. I have been using the purple Ideal and it works good. The only problem with AL wiring was when it was installed by HACKS. I've been in homes where all the connections are tight, no signs of arcing or heat. Those homes were wired by someone that gave a damn, and then there is the other homes, the ones wired by hacks, homeowners, handymen....
 
mtnelectrical said:
WOW It looks very good. Have you tried it before? How much are those?
Click to expand...

They sent me some samples a month or so ago, and the only AL I've seen since then was getting ripped out so I haven't had to use 'em yet.

Stay tuned. :)
 
romexking said:
granted that most of my documentation is from the same website, however I do consider them an authority on aluminum wiring repair.

More info concerning twister #65 UL approval

As soon as it appeared on the market, the Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) questioned UL's listing of this connector for the aluminum wire pigtailing wire combinations. Although the manufacturer claims that the connector has been thoroughly tested for the application, neither the manufacturer or UL have released any substantive test data. The manufacturer states that the connector has received CSA certification for the same wire combinations. Information developed so far indicates the following:

- After its introduction, the manufacturer's manager of engineering stated (to CPSC) that the Ideal #65 is not intended for use in the pigtailing retrofit application, but only for such applications as connecting lighting fixtures and ceiling fans. Ideal committed to CPSC to change its advertising and instructional information accordingly, but did not follow through on that commitment.

- UL did not independently perform the "heat-cycle" life tests required by their standard. These tests were performed by the manufacturer, with UL accepting the manufacturer's results.

- The connector was not "heat-cycle" tested for the common pigtailing wire combinations with current passing through the aluminum-aluminum wire path (in an aluminum-aluminum-copper splice).

- The "heat-cycle" tests that were performed by the manufacturer on the Ideal #65 "Twister" connector were not done using aluminum wire of the type actually installed in homes built in the 1960's and early 1970's.

- The CSA certification was based on UL's acceptance for listing. CSA did not independently evaluate the Ideal #65 connector. In fact, the use of a zinc-plated steel spring in the connector violates a CSA general requirement for connectors for aluminum wiring.

- Both the plastic insulator of the connection and the inhibitor compound inside the connector ignite readily and burn freely. This increases the chance of fire ignition if connection failure occurs
Click to expand...

Very good information and this part is intresting "the Ideal #65 is not intended for use in the pigtailing retrofit application, but only for such applications as connecting lighting fixtures and ceiling fans."

The King connectors seem to work well, for the retrofits and pigtails.
 
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