All AFCI breakers trip when loaded.

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Charles Sanford

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Stockton CA, USA
Hello! I'm new to this Forum, but have been following it for several years.. I am rewiring my house, and I can't get the afci breakers to work. I have removed all the "state of the art" wiring from the 1940's to the newer stuff that others have patched in place. I kept the existing meter/main and replaced the main breaker. I jumpered from the neutral lug to the grounding lug at the main. I installed a new, Square D plug-in neutral bar panel with a floating neutral and grounds bonded to the panel. From that panel, I ran another sub-panel of the same type and configuration. And, when main is closed and power goes to the first and, then, to the second sub-panel, all the afci breakers are okay. However, when I place any load on any breaker, it trips. I replace some AFCI breakers with a older Bryant and Eaton breakers I had lying around, and they don't trip. The GFI receptacles hold and operate properly. The original, main breaker was corroded and the lugs were very small--I was stripping the screw head to tighten; so, I replaced the breaker thinking I had a loose or sloppy connection and consequent vibration... I thought I might have corrosion at the lugs on the neutral/ground bar; so, I jumped between the ground and neutral lugs with a bright #8 copper (it's only a 100 amp panel)... I tried the recommended test, and the breakers snap immediately, which indicates a grounded neutral or an arc fault?

Any recommendations?
 
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Welcome. GFCI receptacles will not trip on a line side fault. Your AFCI breakers are basically all load side. I'm guessing you have either AFCI neutrals crossed up in the panel, or neutrals of different circuits tied together in the home somewhere. I'd check the panel first to make sure neutrals are going to the correct AFCI breaker, then multi-gang switch boxes next.
 
If something in the house or neighborhood is simulating a series arc signature seen by all breakers, then each breaker will not trip until it sees a minimum 7A load.
How much load are you putting on each circuit?.
But crossed neutrals are much more likely.
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ptonsparky said:
+4 on the neutral problem
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Specifically, unlike some GFCIs which can actively detect neutral to ground faults with no load current flowing, the GF component of the AFCI unit requires some load current from the same or a different circuit to trip.
So the symptoms fit.

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Charles Sanford said:
Hello! I'm new to this Forum, but have been following it for several years.. I am rewiring my house, and I can't get the afci breakers to work. I have removed all the "state of the art" wiring from the 1940's to the newer stuff that others have patched in place. I kept the existing meter/main and replaced the main breaker. I jumpered from the neutral lug to the grounding lug at the main. I installed a new, Square D plug-in neutral bar panel with a floating neutral and grounds bonded to the panel. From that panel, I ran another sub-panel of the same type and configuration. And, when main is closed and power goes to the first and, then, to the second sub-panel, all the afci breakers are okay. However, when I place any load on any breaker, it trips. I replace some AFCI breakers with a older Bryant and Eaton breakers I had lying around, and they don't trip. The GFI receptacles hold and operate properly. The original, main breaker was corroded and the lugs were very small--I was stripping the screw head to tighten; so, I replaced the breaker thinking I had a loose or sloppy connection and consequent vibration... I thought I might have corrosion at the lugs on the neutral/ground bar; so, I jumped between the ground and neutral lugs with a bright #8 copper (it's only a 100 amp panel)... I tried the recommended test, and the breakers snap immediately, which indicates a grounded neutral or an arc fault?

Any recommendations?
Click to expand...
Are these non-AFCI breakers? My first guess is they are not.

Newer Square D AFCI's have a test procedure to telly you if the last trip was arc fault, ground fault, or thermal magnetic trip function see this page
 
ramsy said:
Who would admit such a mistake, unless the Arc Faults are General Electric?
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If you are not all that familiar with AFCI's that is one thing, then add to that the OP said he has plug on neutral panel - one could possibly out of habit when making up the panel land neutrals on the neutral bus then install breakers and land ungrounded leads. Would result in exactly what OP is describing as his problem.
 
curt swartz said:
Did you connect the neutral wires to the AFCI breakers or to the neutral buss?
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ramsy said:
Who would admit such a mistake?
Click to expand...


The fact that there is no white pig tail on the breakers may have given the impression that the neutrals could be connect to the neutral bar.

His profile said that he is a retired electrician and we know that we electricians never​ read instructions.

Many electricians that don't don't do residential are not familiar with arc faults.
 
growler said:
The fact that there is no white pig tail on the breakers may have given the impression that the neutrals could be connect to the neutral bar.

His profile said that he is a retired electrician and we know that we electricians never​ read instructions.

Many electricians that don't don't do residential are not familiar with arc faults.
Click to expand...

WE do read instructions!! Usually after everything else fails.
 
kwired said:
If you are not all that familiar with AFCI's that is one thing, then add to that the OP said he has plug on neutral panel - one could possibly out of habit when making up the panel land neutrals on the neutral bus then install breakers and land ungrounded leads. Would result in exactly what OP is describing as his problem.
Click to expand...
That's exact;y what I did... I read a question from one of you guys, and immediately ran to look at the breakers to see... Aargh! With all my neutrals so beautifully bent to the neutral bar and too short to now reach the breakers... AAAAaaand, Alll the breakers had neutral lugs... I no longer had my wire stretchers... I had to install pull poxes to run new wires to be long enough for the neutrals to reach the breakers... DARN! But, THANK YOU!! You guys are terrific! (and, I'm very embarrassed--just call me "Dufus").
 
Charles Sanford said:
That's exact;y what I did... I read a question from one of you guys, and immediately ran to look at the breakers to see... Aargh! With all my neutrals so beautifully bent to the neutral bar and too short to now reach the breakers... AAAAaaand, Alll the breakers had neutral lugs... I no longer had my wire stretchers... I had to install pull poxes to run new wires to be long enough for the neutrals to reach the breakers... DARN! But, THANK YOU!! You guys are terrific! (and, I'm very embarrassed--just call me "Dufus").
Click to expand...

My first post on this forum after also reading it for several years was something equally as embarrassing.

You can't just extend the neutral in the panel with a wirenut? Sure, we don't plan to do it on purpose, but...

I've had to do it many times with GFI breakers where the pigtail just wasn't long enough to go to the neutral bus on the other side of the panel. In that case, it wasn't from a mistake, but a wirenutted neutral in a panel is a wirenutted neutral in a panel. Granted, it highlights the mistake, even if allowed...
 
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