Allen-Bradley RSLogix 5000 questions

[TwoBlocked]

Looks like I will get involved with AB PLCs. I am experienced with Modicon so the programming learning curve shouldn't be very long. But from some discussions I've had, going on site to an unfamiliar AB PLC sounds challenging, especially if HMIs are involved. This would be for troubleshooting and minor changes.

So here are my questions:

Is it true that the revision of the software on your laptop must match the revision of the firmware in the AB PLC?

If you update the revision of the firmware in an AB PLC, can it cause problems with other devices connected to the PLC?

How many different kinds of cables are there for connecting to these PLCs?

What are the options for programming software? I would want to be able to connect to any AB PLC product, even if it takes a couple different software programs.

Is there a GOOD, dedicated Forum out there somewhere that would be more helpful than here? (Haven't seen much I like out there.)

I better stop there for now. I've talked to a distributor who seems knowledgeable and helpful but am not sure I really understand what I need to know.

 

[ptonsparky]

I can relate to not knowing enough to know what to ask.

 

[petersonra]

I will answer the cable question first. For control logic/compactlogix.

Serial, Ethernet, USB

Slc used serial, Ethernet, dh+, or dh485.

Plc5 used serial, dh+, and Ethernet.

Plc2 had 20 ma current loop, serial, or data highway (not dh+).

Depends on the model of the PLC which one it takes.

As for the software.

There are different levels of control logic/compactlogix software available. Some work with all the control logic and compact logic family. Others only some. Some only do ladder logic, others also handle other programming styles.

You might also run into plc5 and slc processors. These use completely different programming packages. They also came in a maddening variety of packages. The plc5 package is not available any longer except by special permission. The slc package is available but there are versions that are free, cheap, and expensive.

You might also run into plc2, plc3, and slc100 plcs in the field. These are all obsolete and use software that is also no longer normally available.

The firmware loaded on the control logic/compactlogix PLC does have to match the software revision. However, you can generally have as many software revisions loaded as you want.

It is possible to run into issues with PLC firmware that does not play nice with other plcs with different firmware. More common is certain comm cards of a certain firmware not working completely the same with a PLC that has upgraded its firmware. Or comm cards of different firmware revisions that won't talk with each other perfectly. I avoid upgrading PLC firmwares for this reason unless I am also willing to upgrade io module firmware as well.

As for the hmis. There are several different older panelview programming software packages. The one you need is based on the model number of the panelview. I think there are at least four. I think they are all called some version of panel builder.

More modern panelviews are called panelview me and are all programmed with the factory view studio me software. You have to be aware of some firmware limitations. In most cases it is possible to convert the older panelview files to factory talk view studio me. But you can't go backwards and mostly the runtime files in the older hmi cannot be uploaded and converted. You will need the source file.

Most of this old software is no longer normally available although it is not impossible to get it.

Bottom line is that it will not be economical for you to be able to support all ab plcs and hmis, and you probably could not acquire the technical skills to do so. Your boss is going to have to figure out what are the most likely things you will run across and determine if they are worth the money to be able to support them.

You might also run into processors that use devicenet or controlnet communications. There are software packages you will need to deal with these networks.

 

[tom baker]

I will answer the cable question first. For control logic/compactlogix.

Serial, Ethernet, USB

Slc used serial, Ethernet, dh+, or dh485.

Plc5 used serial, dh+, and Ethernet.

Plc2 had 20 ma current loop, serial, or data highway (not dh+).

Depends on the model of the PLC which one it takes.

As for the software.

There are different levels of control logic/compactlogix software available. Some work with all the control logic and compact logic family. Others only some. Some only do ladder logic, others also handle other programming styles.

You might also run into plc5 and slc processors. These use completely different programming packages. They also came in a maddening variety of packages. The plc5 package is not available any longer except by special permission. The slc package is available but there are versions that are free, cheap, and expensive.

You might also run into plc2, plc3, and slc100 plcs in the field. These are all obsolete and use software that is also no longer normally available.

The firmware loaded on the PLC does have to match the software revision. However, you can generally have as many software revisions loaded as you want.

It is possible to run into issues with PLC firmware that does not play nice with other plcs with different firmware. More common is certain comm cards of a certain firmware not working completely the same with a PLC that has upgraded its firmware. Or comm cards of different firmware regions that won't talk with each other perfectly. I avoid upgrading PLC firmwares for this reason unless I am also willing to upgrade io module firmware as well.

As for the hmis. There are several different older panelview programming software packages. The one you need is based on the model number of the panelview. I think there are at least four. I think they are all called some version of panel builder.

More modern panelviews are called panelview me and are all programmed with the factory view studio me software. You have to be aware of some firmware limitations. In most cases it is possible to convert the older panelview files to factory talk view studio me. But you can't go backwards and mostly the runtime files in the older hmi cannot be uploaded and converted. You will need the source file.

Most of this old software is no longer normally available although it is not impossible to get it.

Bottom line is that it will not be economical for you to be able to support all ab plcs and hmis, and you probably could not acquire the technical skills to do so. Your boss is going to have to figure out what are the most likely things you will run across and determine if they are worth the money to be able to support them.

I agree with the last comment. Your skills as an electrician would be to assist the programmer in adults of field wiring, wiring diagrams are always out of date
Another option is to set up the PLC for remote access so the programmer can log in and save travel time

 

[petersonra]

I agree with the last comment. Your skills as an electrician would be to assist the programmer in adults of field wiring, wiring diagrams are always out of date
Another option is to set up the PLC for remote access so the programmer can log in and save travel time

There are a lot of simple things electricians can do with plcs. For instance, sometimes I/o points fail and all that needs doing is to change the code to use a working I/o point instead of the failed one. No need to send an engineer out to handle something like that.

Or maybe they want to add a light or valve. Pretty simple. I have many times guided a plant electrician or maintenance man to doing these kinds of things over the phone.

Remote access is a good idea but many places are too cheap to do it.

As often as not, IME a lot of old machines have no wiring diagrams at all.

 

[TwoBlocked]

Thanks for all the great feedback, guys. Let me digest all this and then I'll have a few more questions.

 

[TwoBlocked]

OK first cables. For USB, there is micro, mini, and types A, B, and C. Might any of these be used, or only some of them?

DH, DH+, and DH485 (Data Highway) requires an adapter, right? Do any PLCs require that this MUST be used, that there is no other alternative for connecting to the PLC? Or will it be needed to communicate with other devices on occasion and might be needed for that reason?

 

[TwoBlocked]

And here is what you are free to consider a newbie question, yet I see many experienced techs struggle with it. You need to communicate with a PLC (or other device) via ethernet. Maybe you hook directly to the device, or it may be through an ethernet switch, maybe managed, maybe unmanaged. If you got the IP address, great, IF you can figure out the masking, etc. But if you don't?

Anybody got a surefire, step by step procedure for finding out the IP address of a device, both on or off a network, and setting up your own computer to communicate with it? If there is a link to such a procedure, that would be best.

 

[ptonsparky]

And here is what you are free to consider a newbie question, yet I see many experienced techs struggle with it. You need to communicate with a PLC (or other device) via ethernet. Maybe you hook directly to the device, or it may be through an ethernet switch, maybe managed, maybe unmanaged. If you got the IP address, great, IF you can figure out the masking, etc. But if you don't?

Anybody got a surefire, step by step procedure for finding out the IP address of a device, both on or off a network, and setting up your own computer to communicate with it? If there is a link to such a procedure, that would be best.

Angry IP will help to determine what's on your network but I am very far from being an expert. Loooong way from it.

 

[petersonra]

OK first cables. For USB, there is micro, mini, and types A, B, and C. Might any of these be used, or only some of them?

As far as I know, only USB b is the connector on the PLC. The other end could be a or c depending on your computer.

DH, DH+, and DH485 (Data Highway) requires an adapter, right? Do any PLCs require that this MUST be used, that there is no other alternative for connecting to the PLC? Or will it be needed to communicate with other devices on occasion and might be needed for that reason?

Some plc5s only had dh+. Some slcs only have dh485. There are no plcs that are only dh because it is not native to the PLC.

Incidentally, dh485 is not supported by ab anymore except via a very expensive adaptor that I am not sure is even available anymore. You are just sol if you have one of the slcs that only has dh485.

Just to make it worse, some people would set the serial port on slcs that had them to use the dh485 protocol over rs232. You would mostly be sol on that as well.

The dh+ adaptors are not well supported these days. If you plan to support plcs that need dh+, you might find this difficult.

Some ab hmis had cf support. Try finding a cf card these days.

 

[TwoBlocked]

As far as I know, only USB b is the connector on the PLC. The other end could be a or c depending on your computer.


Some plc5s only had dh+. Some slcs only have dh485. There are no plcs that are only dh because it is not native to the PLC.

Incidentally, dh485 is not supported by ab anymore except via a very expensive adaptor that I am not sure is even available anymore. You are just sol if you have one of the slcs that only has dh485.

Just to make it worse, some people would set the serial port on slcs that had them to use the dh485 protocol over rs232. You would mostly be sol on that as well.

The dh+ adaptors are not well supported these days. If you plan to support plcs that need dh+, you might find this difficult.

Some ab hmis had cf support. Try finding a cf card these days.

Thanks Bob, this really helps. Gotta accept that I may not be able to help a customer in some situations.

 

[TwoBlocked]

Now here's something I'm kinda foggy on: RSLogix 5000 programming software vs Studio 5000 programming software. I understand that the name was changed starting with version 21. That is, there is no RSLogix 5000 version 21 and there is no Studio 5000 version 20. I guess this makes some sense when the versions of the firmware on the PLCs progress through these version numbers.

Where I may be hitting a snag is using my company's Factory Talk, or if I choose to install programming software directly on my computer. I'll work out the FT problem this morning (I hope...) So.... if I need to deal with both firmware versions 20 and 21, I have to purchase (or Factory Talk) both RSLogix 5000 (for versions 20 and down) along with Studio 5000 (for versions 21 and up)? Is that how it works?

Yesterday, I finally figured out the "key" for downloading Suite 5000 , although I only have Factory Talk for RSLogix 5000. Seems someone else has Suite 5000 right now. I'll have to get the "key" for RSLogix 5000 so I can download it. This sound right?

When I tried downloading Suite 5000, it was going to take like 5 hours and the file was 7 GB! I cancelled out until I can get to the shop where there is faster internet. But if I download ALL the version of BOTH softwares, that's a lot of disc space! Am thinking about getting an external hard drive to store all these files, and then install/uninstall what is need for any particular job. Does that make sense?

 

[petersonra]

I would be loading what I planned to use. The problem is that sometimes a version will load and install in a few minutes. Other times it is an hours long ordeal. Better to do it in advance.

I don't know what you mean about installing factory talk. It does not require a license.

You can have studio 5000 and rslogix 5000 both. Be aware that certain versions are no longer available for download without special permission that sometimes takes a few days.

I would definitely keep a copy of the web downloads offline in case you have to rebuild a computer or install it somewhere else.

Also, you can only have one version of factory talk view studio loaded. This is not normally an issue for M.E. projects as you can create older version runtime files. However, if you come across a version of a runtime or archive file that is newer, it won't load and gives you a cryptic error message

 

[TwoBlocked]

...

I don't know what you mean about installing factory talk. It does not require a license.

OK, maybe I don't know either. I understood that I used "Factory Talk Activation Manager" to check out the license the company has for RSLogix 5000. I then needed to actually download the RSLogix software, but need the "key" that matches the serial number. The serial number was a available on the FT Activation Manager, but the "key" was not. I sent an email asking for it.

 

[petersonra]

OK, maybe I don't know either. I understood that I used "Factory Talk Activation Manager" to check out the license the company has for RSLogix 5000. I then needed to actually download the RSLogix software, but need the "key" that matches the serial number. The serial number was a available on the FT Activation Manager, but the "key" was not. I sent an email asking for it.

You need the key and the serial number to download programming software. Usually Rockwell emails this to whomever is designated as the primary contact at your organization, although I think you can usually get it from tech support if the primary contact has listed you as a user. If you are listed as a user you should get an email with a link to download licenses you are entitled to. The process is way overly complicated and often breaks down at some point in the convoluted process.

 

[TwoBlocked]

Just read this in some of the literature. WOWSER!!! So if you turn on an output in Ladder Logic, and on the next rung you use that output in Logic, it may or may not show as being turned on? Wonder how many more "sword of Damocles" there are in this stuff.

 

[petersonra]

The I/O is updated asynchronously to the program scan. Previous ab controllers did the I/o update between program scans.

If you turn the output on in the PLC program, it shows as on in the program, but it won't actually affect the output until the update occurs.

It rarely matters unless you are doing programming where the I/o timing is critical.

The communications scan is also asynchronous to the program scan. Again something that rarely matters if good programming practices are used
Some people do incredibly stupid things like latching a bit on in one rung and unlatching it later on so there is a part of the program scan the bit is on and part it is off. This can lead to the HMI showing the bit as blinking intermittently.

 

[TwoBlocked]

It's the things that "rarely" happen that can be a killer. Well, to be forewarned is to be forearmed. Gonna have to do a LOT of studying to see what other traps there may be - not just for any programming I might do, but troubleshooting other's work too. Wonder if MicroLogix does the same thing.

 

[petersonra]

It's the things that "rarely" happen that can be a killer. Well, to be forewarned is to be forearmed. Gonna have to do a LOT of studying to see what other traps there may be - not just for any programming I might do, but troubleshooting other's work too. Wonder if MicroLogix does the same thing.

Slc plcs scan the io and comm channels between program scans.

Plc5 does asynchronous comm scans but I think the io scan is between program scans.

Both the slc and plc5 line have ways to force io updates whenever you want them.