Altered Machinery

[kwired]

I'm a little confused by this. There have been a number of threads about how custom made lamps are now required to get a UL sticker. If a customer wants to convert a log splitter into a weld testing machine for use by students, he doesn't need any kind of sticker or review of it but if they converted an old microphone stand into a floor lamp to light the work they're going to do on the test equipment they would need a UL sticker for the lamp? Something seems very illogical about that.

Luminaires are required by NEC to be listed. I could be wrong, but I don't believe NEC would cover a portable lamp, but build your own fixture that is to be permanently attached to a building and it is covered by Art 410 whether it is cord and plug connected or direct wired.

Portable lamp in say a hazardous location? May or may not be required to be listed by NEC, but probably is required by some other code that applies to the hazardous location.

 

[Strathead]

The listing thing came strait from the AHJ.

Still reading through all the thread, but on this issue, earlier you stated that the item needed to be "approved." Now you state it needs to be "listed". These are two totally different things. Which is it?

I suspect "approved" if listed was the requirement, this would be a no-brainer. There would be no real dispute as I doubt there is an AHJ out there who would risk everything to ignore this requirement.

If approved is the thing, then I ask from your previous comments respectfully but to make a point, "Who are you to determine that this equipment is or is not safe and approved?" Can you just see an electrician thinking, all compressors made in China are garbage. I refuse to hook one up because it isn't safe.

 

[c gat]

The inspector is giving you legal advice now? Is he also a lawyer?

read carefully what 90.7 actually says. It starts out with



In other words, only those items of equipment and materials SPECIFIED within the code require what we call "listing". If the code doesn't say it is required to be listed, it is not required to be listed.

See, this is where I get confused on this, Art. 90.7 is Examination of Equipment for Safety, then look at the Def of Equipment, says machinery is considered equipment, then look at 110.3 Not quite sure how this should be interpreted but I think the AHJ is interpreting this as if this machine as not been tested and deemed safe by whoever then he is not going to approve it, don't know though, just speculation.

 

[c gat]

Still reading through all the thread, but on this issue, earlier you stated that the item needed to be "approved." Now you state it needs to be "listed". These are two totally different things. Which is it?

I suspect "approved" if listed was the requirement, this would be a no-brainer. There would be no real dispute as I doubt there is an AHJ out there who would risk everything to ignore this requirement.

If approved is the thing, then I ask from your previous comments respectfully but to make a point, "Who are you to determine that this equipment is or is not safe and approved?" Can you just see an electrician thinking, all compressors made in China are garbage. I refuse to hook one up because it isn't safe.

According to the AHJ, this machine would have to be listed before he would approve it. Listed by who? I don't know, but something being listed does not mean UL listed, that is just the most common one.

 

[kwired]

According to the AHJ, this machine would have to be listed before he would approve it. Listed by who? I don't know.

And had this machine been built/modified but contained no electrical components ..... what is his justification to disapprove it?
If a gasoline powered motor is replaced with an electric motor - he can approve/disapprove the wiring supplying or controlling the motor, but what is his authority to determine if the rest of the machine is safe to use, unless maybe he wears more then just an electrical inspectors hat?

 

[c gat]

And had this machine been built/modified but contained no electrical components ..... what is his justification to disapprove it?
If a gasoline powered motor is replaced with an electric motor - he can approve/disapprove the wiring supplying or controlling the motor, but what is his authority to determine if the rest of the machine is safe to use, unless maybe he wears more then just an electrical inspectors hat?

LOL, apparently he has many hats. This started out as a liability issue for me but I'm starting to think this can of worms has no bottom.

 

[Strathead]

According to the AHJ, this machine would have to be listed before he would approve it. Listed by who? I don't know, but something being listed does not mean UL listed, that is just the most common one.

It seemed to me that you started out with you being the one who had a problem with this installation and you were worried about your liability. Now you are implying that the problem is exclusively with the AHJ. Methinks you are putting too much in to it. This is my recommendation. No can of worms for you.

Give a price to customer
clearly exclude additional work required to certify the connected equipment
Pull a permit.
Install electrical
Call for inspection
If inspector writes up for not being listed request code section of violation from the AHJ
If the answer is valid forward to the customer
If you are REALLY concerned with personal liability in the mean time, put a Lock out tag out device on the power. If someone violates that and someone else gets hurt, pity on them.

That is pretty simple to me.

 

[kwired]

It seemed to me that you started out with you being the one who had a problem with this installation and you were worried about your liability. Now you are implying that the problem is exclusively with the AHJ. Methinks you are putting too much in to it. This is my recommendation. No can of worms for you.

Give a price to customer
clearly exclude additional work required to certify the connected equipment
Pull a permit.
Install electrical
Call for inspection
If inspector writes up for not being listed request code section of violation from the AHJ
If the answer is valid forward to the customer
If you are REALLY concerned with personal liability in the mean time, put a Lock out tag out device on the power. If someone violates that and someone else gets hurt, pity on them.

That is pretty simple to me.

If I were the customer and gave me a price - I wouldn't be happy when you come back later asking for more $$ because what you proposed to me won't pass inspection, I know it is done but I don't do that to my customers, I tell them if they can't do something a certain way because it will not pass inspection, and quote them a price that should pass inspection.

Now if an inspector comes along with something unexpected... it does open a can of worms but that should be between me and the inspector. If something is questionable from the start, I will be talking to the inspector before giving a quote to the customer, but I just happen to like being honest and have regular customers that want a two way honest relationship instead of getting what I can from as many suckers as possible (not saying that is what you do, but it happens).

 

[Strathead]

If I were the customer and gave me a price - I wouldn't be happy when you come back later asking for more $$ because what you proposed to me won't pass inspection, I know it is done but I don't do that to my customers, I tell them if they can't do something a certain way because it will not pass inspection, and quote them a price that should pass inspection.

Now if an inspector comes along with something unexpected... it does open a can of worms but that should be between me and the inspector. If something is questionable from the start, I will be talking to the inspector before giving a quote to the customer, but I just happen to like being honest and have regular customers that want a two way honest relationship instead of getting what I can from as many suckers as possible (not saying that is what you do, but it happens).

I totally agree with you, but from the previous posts, the conversation has taken place extensively with the customer. You imply that there would have been something wrong with the electrical installation. That is not the case. It is a problem with the equipment provided by the customer. I can think of many example where I wouldn't lose sleep. This equipment isn't his, he didn't modify it, etc. That would be like knowing the HVAC equipment isn't going to keep the room warm with only 10K of heat strips, but that is the HVAC contractor's concern. I would tell my customer if I had direct contact with them (if I was sure) otherwise, I would install the power requested. And if I told you it wouldn't work and you said do it anyway, I would do it. What you describe is not what I said and if someone implied that I would do what you said I would be very mad very quickly.