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Alternate Point of View? Preying on Homeowners

Merry Christmas
P

paullmullen

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
Electrical Engineer & Master Electrician
My relative called me asking for me to play my Master Electrician card and talk with an another electrician who was proposing a lot of changes as part of a free safety inspection in a home built 15 years ago. Note that there were no Here were the proposals... all of them totaling to $20k in parts and service:

1) Replace all of the receptacles because they were installed using backstab instead of under-the-screw
2) Replace all of the Leviton switches because they're all arcing and near end of life.
3) Replace all of the 110V breakers with ACFIs
4) Add a whole-home surge protector
5) Bring two kitchen receptacles (dishwasher and refrigerator) up to code with GFCIs
6) Replace the breaker panel because it is 15 years old and (therefore) approaching end of life.

I'm not asking for a solution, I'm just venting. I can imagine the GFCI updates and maybe the whole house surge protection, but after that, it feels like preying on an easily worried homeowner.

I'm not licensed in the State of Washington - Wisconsin starts with the same letter, maybe they'd let me slide in under reciprocity ;-) - otherwise I'd fly out and re-assess it myself. OK. I'm done.

Anyone want to take an alternate perspective? Am I just too cynical?

Paul
 
roger

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
#1 Although not my preference I wouldn't sweat the backstabs
#2 I wouldn't have the switches replaced until they failed, many of the switches in my house are 30 to 40 years old
#3 If AFCI's were not required when the house was built I certainly wouldn't put them in now.
#4 Surge suppressor maybe
#5 GFCI's in kitchen yes
#6 No
 
infinity

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
1) Not required but some dislike backstabbing
2) Sounds bogus
3) Not required wouldn't do that in my own home
4) Good idea
5) Good idea
6) Definitely not obsolete after 15 years unless it has somehow been damaged
 
Seven-Delta-FortyOne

Seven-Delta-FortyOne

Goin’ Down In Flames........
Location
Humboldt
Occupation
EC and GC
Unfortunately in todays hyper-sensitive, scared, risk-averse, litigious, and blame-filled society, this is more and more common, and there is always someone who will sell the idea of advanced safety, because that is what most people want, and what covers the sellers backside.

As far as the reality of the report, my opinion is:

1- Backstabs will fail all on their own. Wait until the plugs will no longer stay connected, and then replace them all. One house I went in and replaced 120 receptacles, switches, and 3-ways, because they were all failing. This was in a house less than 15 years old.

2- Ditto on the switches. When they actually fail, replace them. All switches arc, that's what they do

3- I will never have AFCI breakers in any house I own. They are basically snake oil.

4- Surge protectors are worth every penny. I like one in the main panel, one in sub panels, and then some POU devices for electronic equipment.

5- Not required, nor probably a good idea. I get usually a call a week about a refrigerator or other appliance that won't work with the GFCI. Until the manufacturers can figure this out, I wouldn't do this. It's like the 1st gen AFCI thing all over again.

6- 15 years old in not end-of-life for any reputable panel, based solely on age. If it's on a seacoast and it's full of rust, that's one thing. Just because its 15 years old doesn't mean it needs to be replaced.
 
H

Hv&Lv

Senior Member
Location
-
Occupation
Engineer/Technician
#2) I've had brand new switches arcing. If you open and close the light switch very slowly you can hear the arcing. It's a good way to scare a homeowner.
 
mtnelect

mtnelect

HVAC & Electrical Contractor
Location
Southern California
Occupation
Contractor, C10 & C20 - Semi Retired
I do investigations for CSLB (Contractors State License Board) and there is a lot of work out there for me to do. You have to like writing reports and testifying in court.

1) Contractors that will contract to upgrade your old cloth covered wiring. Then realize that it's harder than they expected.
2) Contractors that don't pull permits
3) Contractors that want all the money upfront
4) Contractors that use "PACE" that puts a lien on your property ... then the consumer has to pay it through your property tax bill.

I could go on forever ... there are contractors and there are contractors.
 
Last edited:
Mystic Pools

Mystic Pools

Senior Member
Location
Park Ridge, NJ
Occupation
Swimming Pool Contractor
paullmullen said:
My relative called me asking for me to play my Master Electrician card and talk with an another electrician who was proposing a lot of changes as part of a free safety inspection in a home built 15 years ago. Note that there were no Here were the proposals... all of them totaling to $20k in parts and service:

1) Replace all of the receptacles because they were installed using backstab instead of under-the-screw
2) Replace all of the Leviton switches because they're all arcing and near end of life.
3) Replace all of the 110V breakers with ACFIs
4) Add a whole-home surge protector
5) Bring two kitchen receptacles (dishwasher and refrigerator) up to code with GFCIs
6) Replace the breaker panel because it is 15 years old and (therefore) approaching end of life.

I'm not asking for a solution, I'm just venting. I can imagine the GFCI updates and maybe the whole house surge protection, but after that, it feels like preying on an easily worried homeowner.

I'm not licensed in the State of Washington - Wisconsin starts with the same letter, maybe they'd let me slide in under reciprocity ;-) - otherwise I'd fly out and re-assess it myself. OK. I'm done.

Anyone want to take an alternate perspective? Am I just too cynical?

Paul
Click to expand...
You're not cynical. You really care about the way work should be done and especially for relatives. I can appreciate that.

Perhaps there is someone on this forum that works that area that you may find trustworthy and up to your standards to take a look.

I had a somewhat similar situation consulting for a homeowner in Arizona having issues with their pool build.

I'm 3,000 miles away so I relied on photos and conversations to get my bearings. I was contacted in the Spring so the chance of me flying out to be on site wasn't going to happen. If it was January, would have been a different story.

Because of my network in my industry, I had a name of a builder referred to me to take over the job in case the original builder bailed or if the homeware wanted a change.
It didn't get that point as the builder made good.

Maybe this idea can work for you and your relative.
 
J

jim dungar

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
PE (Retired) - Power Systems
paullmullen said:
Agree with both of you @roger and @infinity. I guess I had my high integrity bubble burst by this.
Click to expand...
You said in the OP, it was a free inspection, and you rarely get quality you didn't pay for.
The inspection was more about finding ways to make the electrician money than it was about electrical safety, especially #6.

Not one of those recommendations is required by any code unless other permitted work is being performed. Why doesn't your relative just ignore the report? Do they believe that contractor more than they do you?
 
Jraef

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
I am on Nextdoor locally, people post their fears about electrical issues all the time and of course, some are legit. But many are not and we have a LOT of immigrants here from India and Pakistan (working in Silicon Valley under H1B visas) who are totally unfamiliar with US systems, do I get how they can be worried.

I have noticed recently that this issue of an “electrical safety review service” has been popping up more and more often, almost always with results similar to this. This concept of breakers only lasting 15-20 years for example seems to be a common thread, leaving me wondering where that is coming from.

I have debunked these reports several times recently, and in two cases the homeowners went ahead anyway! In one case I asked the homeowner if the service came from a licensed electrical contractor, then showed them how to check. Turned out the service provider was using someone else’s license number. In another, the review service provider was NOT a licensed contractor, they said they “were working with several” to actually perform the work. So to me that SHOULD make them a GC? I’m not sure, but it all sounds fishy to me.

On the other hand, maybe a retirement occupation for me??? I will not stoop to fear mongering, but like I said, there are legitimate issues out there and most of the electricians around here are charging upward of $400 for a call out just to come and look at something. I’m not saying that’s too high, I get it because it’s expensive to do business here. But maybe this “look but don’t touch” opinion service at a lower rate (because I don’t need all the other accoutrements of being an actual EC any more) might be a niche.

Oh wait a minute… getting down on the floor to look at back-stabbed outlets… forget it!
 
M

micabay

Appliance Tech
Location
Kitsap, WA
Occupation
Appliance Tech
busman said:
My old Bryant panel is 74 years old and I don't lose a second of sleep over it. It's in great condition with zero corrosion.

Mark
Click to expand...
My Federal Pacific panel is about 50 years old. It works great. Never trip the breakers when I run my space heater, coffee pot, hairdryer all on the same outlet! (this is sarcasm, plz don't cancel me)
 
J

jaggedben

Senior Member
Location
Northern California
Occupation
Solar and Energy Storage Installer
paullmullen said:
...

1) Replace all of the receptacles because they were installed using backstab instead of under-the-screw
2) Replace all of the Leviton switches because they're all arcing and near end of life.
3) Replace all of the 110V breakers with ACFIs
4) Add a whole-home surge protector
5) Bring two kitchen receptacles (dishwasher and refrigerator) up to code with GFCIs
6) Replace the breaker panel because it is 15 years old and (therefore) approaching end of life.

...
Click to expand...

The last one pretty much makes me mistrust the entirety of it. Also that isn't 20k of work. Terrible.
 
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