Alternate Point of View? Preying on Homeowners

[Jraef]

That Bryant would have to be from 1950, if dated correctly.

Breaker panel or fuse panel? They made both. If it’s a breaker panel, that means Westinghouse/Bryant came out with one well before Square D and Cutler Hammer, in fact WHILE they were selling the old XO breaker lines to their competitors! Shrewd…

I still have a couple of friends at Siemens, I’ll see if they have any info on when Murray and ITE came out with their panels. I do remember from my Siemens days that Murray made fuse panels and got on board the CB train by brand-labeling the ITE breakers and putting them into their fuse box structures. I just don’t know the time line for when that took place. I assumed it was the mid 50s like everyone else. If Bryant had one in 1950, they may have need the engine for that train.

 

[ramsy]

My old Bryant panel is 74 years old and I don't lose a second of sleep over it. It's in great condition with zero corrosion.

Mark

My house was built in 1950.

Breaker panel or fuse panel? They made both.

Mark, you up next.

 

[busman]

Mark, you up next.

Thinking about it more, might not be original. Main Breaker is 200A. But definitely an old Bryant with the colored handle breakers. Maybe early 70's? You guys would know better than me.

Mark

 

[jim dungar]

Thinking about it more, might not be original. Main Breaker is 200A. But definitely an old Bryant with the colored handle breakers. Maybe early 70's? You guys would know better than me.

Mark

I my first Bryant experience, with multicolored breakers, was in '76.
I remember it because the knockouts wouldn't, without denting the box.

 

[Deldonna]

I hear about this all the time in western WA. My favorite that I have seen recently is an electrician (EL-02- residential specialty) go to a church to "troubleshoot an issue with their projector having a line going through the image". He ended up convincing them that they need to replace the 3-200A panels (Type cutler-hammer CH, copper bus) coming off of the CT can. He somehow convinced them with a DMM that between the load side of the main breaker, to the bottom of the bus, @ each panel, there was a 12% voltage drop, and that the bus "has worn out."
I had one of the church members call me, for a "second opinion", because he had his suspicions. I fixed their problem with a clamp-on noise filter, and a new grounded appliance cord, (old one had the ground prong missing). The other guy wasn't even licensed to do "commercial" work. The fear mongering and predatory sales practices are getting out of control in this area...

 

[Bmore.recs]

I have an older ITE Panel in my home and I know for a fact it is older than 30 years and it works fine! I admit that at some point I will change it out because I can see some oxidizing taking place but currently no issues. So the panel replacement is bogus!

 

[blueheels2]

Unfortunately in todays hyper-sensitive, scared, risk-averse, litigious, and blame-filled society, this is more and more common, and there is always someone who will sell the idea of advanced safety, because that is what most people want, and what covers the sellers backside.

As far as the reality of the report, my opinion is:

1- Backstabs will fail all on their own. Wait until the plugs will no longer stay connected, and then replace them all. One house I went in and replaced 120 receptacles, switches, and 3-ways, because they were all failing. This was in a house less than 15 years old.

2- Ditto on the switches. When they actually fail, replace them. All switches arc, that's what they do

3- I will never have AFCI breakers in any house I own. They are basically snake oil.

4- Surge protectors are worth every penny. I like one in the main panel, one in sub panels, and then some POU devices for electronic equipment.

5- Not required, nor probably a good idea. I get usually a call a week about a refrigerator or other appliance that won't work with the GFCI. Until the manufacturers can figure this out, I wouldn't do this. It's like the 1st gen AFCI thing all over again.

6- 15 years old in not end-of-life for any reputable panel, based solely on age. If it's on a seacoast and it's full of rust, that's one thing. Just because its 15 years old doesn't mean it needs to be replaced.

Yeah I start suggesting replacement at 30. If they don’t want to do it I say put it on the radar. I just say I can’t guarantee the main or the breakers operate as intended. I say this because most people don’t cycle their mains and I’ve seen them fail when they get turned off for the first time in 20 or 30 years.

 

[letgomywago]

Yeah I start suggesting replacement at 30. If they don’t want to do it I say put it on the radar. I just say I can’t guarantee the main or the breakers operate as intended. I say this because most people don’t cycle their mains and I’ve seen them fail when they get turned off for the first time in 20 or 30 years.

I was surprised to see a early 2000 ch main that the home owner turned off turn back on after a meter and mast repair last year. I was fairly certain it'd be done for but it clicked back on.

 

[jaggedben]

Hopefully I don't jinx myself but I'm going to stick my neck out and say there's some alarmism in this thread. I and my crews have turned off and on dozens of 200A service disconnect breakers (and even more 100-125A) in the course of doing our battery backup work, and I've yet to see one fail. Circuit breakers are not expected to fail merely from being old, let alone only 20 years. I'm not denying anyone's experience, and yes some percentage of breakers are defective, but anecdotes are anecdotal. Perhaps YMMV if the temps in your area are more extreme, but I'd expect that difference to be rather marginal.

 

[ramsy]

I'd expect that difference to be rather marginal.

Operating under load may expedite failure.

 

[James L]

Operating under load may expedite failure.

I've seen more failures when the main breaker is outside the house, on the west side.

Late afternoon heat seems to take a bigger toll than load

 

[blueheels2]

Hopefully I don't jinx myself but I'm going to stick my neck out and say there's some alarmism in this thread. I and my crews have turned off and on dozens of 200A service disconnect breakers (and even more 100-125A) in the course of doing our battery backup work, and I've yet to see one fail. Circuit breakers are not expected to fail merely from being old, let alone only 20 years. I'm not denying anyone's experience, and yes some percentage of breakers are defective, but anecdotes are anecdotal. Perhaps YMMV if the temps in your area are more extreme, but I'd expect that difference to be rather marginal.

Ok but at what point should one replace equipment? Did the manufacturer plan for a main breaker to last 20 years, 30, 50, 100? Should we only replace when it melts or someone shuts it off and it won’t turn back on?
It would be nice if the manufacturers would put a life limit on these things, take the guess work out of it.

 

[LarryFine]

Ok but at what point should one replace equipment? Did the manufacturer plan for a main breaker to last 20 years, 30, 50, 100? Should we only replace when it melts or someone shuts it off and it won’t turn back on?
It would be nice if the manufacturers would put a life limit on these things, take the guess work out of it.

How can they possibly know? I don't believe age alone is a reason to replace equipment.

 

[ramsy]

I've seen more failures when the main breaker is outside the house, on the west side.

Late afternoon heat seems to take a bigger toll than load

I’ve seen that too, but discovered it was typical of post remodel overloads, overheating breakers for extended periods.

The West facing fuse box does fry equipment covers, but problems go away when overload hazards are corrected.

 

[TwistLock]

In a nearby city they went all in on backstabbing residences in the later 70's. (copper / California / dry / warm).
I saw, repeatedly, serious issues caused using this termination method by the 90's. Voltage drop, Overheating, Brassing the wire, Fires.
So I'm conditioned to be suspect of backstabbing and will always recommend pig-tailing as an ounce of prevention.
Whether or not the device mfgs. (Leviton) improved the design of builder grade devices later, I don't know. Obviously Wago et. al. etc. have done their testing.
Even though the OP post points to a hustle, other than the panel change, it's hard to fault a thorough going over of any home. One of the first things we all ask when troubleshooting is "what work have you had done recently...?".
Painters, Cabinet Installers, Unlicensed Remodelers, Shoddy HVAC, Handymen, Relatives, Homeowners themselves, Previous Homeowners, Flippers, New Home Builders (possibly the worst) etc all mess with the electrical. Scratch the surface and it's a horror show.

 

[Fred B]

One of the first things we all ask when troubleshooting is "what work have you had done recently...?".
Painters, Cabinet Installers, Unlicensed Remodelers, Shoddy HVAC, Handymen, Relatives, Homeowners themselves, Previous Homeowners, Flippers, New Home Builders (possibly the worst) etc all mess with the electrical. Scratch the surface and it's a horror show.

Problem is usually you don't get a straight answer until you find the item "Touched" precipitating the issue or after multiple attempts to solicit some factual information as there was some "obvious signs" someone had done something prior to the issue or you getting there.

 

[James L]

Problem is usually you don't get a straight answer until you find the item "Touched" precipitating the issue or after multiple attempts to solicit some factual information as there was some "obvious signs" someone had done something prior to the issue or you getting there.

I've told a few people "the more you cooperate with me, the less it's gonna cost"

I don't know why people are so reluctant to just spill the beans with details

 

[Fred B]

I've told a few people "the more you cooperate with me, the less it's gonna cost"

I don't know why people are so reluctant to just spill the beans with details

had one that was over 2 hours in before they finally spilled it that their buddy worked on an outlet, it then had shorted out, tripped a breaker. I then found the burnt outlet and it was wired backwards and energized a neutral of a different side of a MWBC that also wasn't marked is why the breaker tripped, the opposite side of MWBC. It ended up being a little over double the cost it might had been if they were forthcoming.

That's why I would never do trouble calls for anything other than T&M.

 

[James L]

That's why I would never do trouble calls for anything other than T&M.

For sure. People will sometimes ask how much it's going to cost before it ever gets done. And I tell them it's hourly.

Inevitably, they ask how long it's going to take to fix it and I tell them usually a minute or two, that fixing the problem is very quick.

However, finding the problem can take a long time

 

[jaggedben]

Ok but at what point should one replace equipment? Did the manufacturer plan for a main breaker to last 20 years, 30, 50, 100? Should we only replace when it melts or someone shuts it off and it won’t turn back on?
It would be nice if the manufacturers would put a life limit on these things, take the guess work out of it.

I'm gonna be real unscientific and say "When it looks too old." I think when you know you know. Or if there are signs of physical damage, corrosion, arcing, or heat damage.

For interior subpanels in conditioned spaces that don't end up suffering physical or water damage or heavy duty load I bet some panels could last a hundred years, sure. In another thread we were trying to determine when Bryant started making the BR type after someone claimed to have a BR panel from 1950 and said they thought it was fine.

I will also say that in my experience I've seen a number of defective breakers and damaged panels and there was no general correlation with age, some of them were quite new. Quality control over the years hasn't necessarily been so consistent as to make age a good predictor of failure.