Aluminum Wire Plan

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stang623

Member
Location
Upstate, SC
Hey guys, have a new tenant we need to take care of in an industrial building. Looking set two panels and pull 4/0 aluminum wire 500 feet and 385 feet and wanting to use aluminum conductor's. Tenant is a know it all and skeptical on aluminum wire. We are planning to pull wire and use the following crimp connectors on the MLO panels, will remove the set screw lug type connectors on the panel and use these instead. YA-A style from burndy.

1732653170232.png


On the other end where it goes into a breaker we are planning to use these as there appears to be plenty of space to do so.


1732653263151.png

Any thoughts on plan and tips to calm the gentlemen down?

Thanks
AJ
 
Aluminum is good stuff in these sizes, and much more economical, even with an up-size.

The wire sizing is dependent on the actual loads, so we need more info to comment.
 
Ok sure...one of the runs is 2" ridgid and the other is 2" EMT...these are lighting loads with a few general loads. General loads are 1 hp garage doors and loading dock levelers. Everything is 480 with lights being 277. The lighting load is less than 50% of maximum current in both cases.

Panels are 225 amp MLO panels and feeding them with 150 amps worth of breakers and wire.

4 - 4/0 SIMPull Conductors THHN and one 6 AWG SIMPull conductor THHN.
 
Take a look at this thread:

Use of Aluminum Conductors

I am seeking opinions, and if available, a history lesson, on the early downsides of AL conductors. The electrical group at a military base is opposing the use of AL in all circumstances, despite the fact that the Unified Federal Criteria (UFCs) specifically allows it in specific circumstances...
forums.mikeholt.com

There are situations where aluminum conductors can be a problem. Large aluminum conductors, indoors, in a non-corrosive atmosphere: not a problem. Just make sure that all terminations are rated for aluminum and torqued to the correct value with a torque wrench.

-Jonathan
 
I've had several quotes over the years with 5 or so local outfits to do the work and whenever I ask about aluminum they look at me like I'm crazy.

No one ever gives a solid reason of why, answers always more along the lines of "I'm not real comfortable with that." This is why I was so worried about the plan?

Its hard to find anyone with a crimper they all have to rent one.
 
stang623 said:
Hey guys, have a new tenant we need to take care of in an industrial building. Looking set two panels and pull 4/0 aluminum wire 500 feet and 385 feet and wanting to use aluminum conductor's. Tenant is a know it all and skeptical on aluminum wire. We are planning to pull wire and use the following crimp connectors on the MLO panels, will remove the set screw lug type connectors on the panel and use these instead. YA-A style from burndy.

View attachment 2574542


On the other end where it goes into a breaker we are planning to use these as there appears to be plenty of space to do so.


View attachment 2574543

Any thoughts on plan and tips to calm the gentlemen down?

Thanks
AJ
Click to expand...
The MLO panel was listed with the mechanical connections and they can only be replaced with a termination that is listed in the instructions for that panel.

As far as I know, the terminations on larger breakers have only been evaluated for use with Class B and C stranded conductors, not for the solid pin. There is at least one brand of pin connectors that has a Class B or C stranded conductor as the "pin".
 
stang623 said:
Hey guys, have a new tenant we need to take care of in an industrial building. Looking set two panels and pull 4/0 aluminum wire 500 feet and 385 feet and wanting to use aluminum conductor's. Tenant is a know it all and skeptical on aluminum wire. We are planning to pull wire and use the following crimp connectors on the MLO panels, will remove the set screw lug type connectors on the panel and use these instead. YA-A style from burndy.

View attachment 2574542
Click to expand...
Sometimes what goes without saying maybe oughta be said anyway: make sure they are rated for aluminum conductors. I know of a case where an electrician installed Cu only rated connectors like this on aluminum wire, and they burnt up nine 120kW PV inverters. It was an expensive mistake.
 
stang623 said:
I've had several quotes over the years with 5 or so local outfits to do the work and whenever I ask about aluminum they look at me like I'm crazy.

No one ever gives a solid reason of why, answers always more along the lines of "I'm not real comfortable with that." This is why I was so worried about the plan?
Click to expand...

Crazy. Except for a couple times I had an existing pipe run I needed to squeeze as much
ampacity as I could through , and when stuff is close together, I haven't used copper feeders over say size 2AWG in like 15 years or more.
 
May I add my $ 0.02 here ? ( I'm not an electrician, nor do I portray one on TV, and furthermore I did not sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night)

but you state " Tenant is a know it all and skeptical on aluminum wire."

Make da**ed sure you have covered all bases, or you will be faced with an 'I told you so' moment down the road.

It might be a better course to allow Mr Skeptic to make the choice to pay extra for copper.

Just my opinion, worth exactly what you paid for it............

Thank you
 
Guys I really appreciated all the feedback. We are responsible for the money on the installation of these two panels/wire pulls which is why we are looking to save some money. I wish I could just charge them for it. Just got quote back on wire...looks like aluminum is about $3,500 and copper is $11,500. We are looking to do aluminum cause even if we buy a crimper for this job we will still save over the copper wires.

I see you guys are skeptical on the pin connectors and mention they might not be UL listed with the breaker, this is a pin with a lug like termination pictured in a breaker and even an older looking breaker, what else would these pins connectors be use for this seems like an ideal application of them.

Guys always mention the idea of the wires needing to be retorqued and I'm trying to avoid all of that by going above and beyond. Pictures just example, we will be using crimped terminals for everything.

1733176716219.png 1733176768561.png
 
I did call Burndy and they stated that the pins are UL listed for Breakers and Panelboards, don_resqcapt19, is Burndy the brand you were speaking about?
 
stang623 said:
Guys I really appreciated all the feedback. We are responsible for the money on the installation of these two panels/wire pulls which is why we are looking to save some money. I wish I could just charge them for it. Just got quote back on wire...looks like aluminum is about $3,500 and copper is $11,500. We are looking to do aluminum cause even if we buy a crimper for this job we will still save over the copper wires.

I see you guys are skeptical on the pin connectors and mention they might not be UL listed with the breaker, this is a pin with a lug like termination pictured in a breaker and even an older looking breaker, what else would these pins connectors be use for this seems like an ideal application of them.

Guys always mention the idea of the wires needing to be retorqued and I'm trying to avoid all of that by going above and beyond. Pictures just example, we will be using crimped terminals for everything.

View attachment 2574626 View attachment 2574627
Click to expand...
As far as I know there are no mechanical connections, either individual or part of a breaker or other equipment, intended for use with conductors that are 6AWG and larger that are listed for use with solid pins. Most are listed for use with Class B and C stranded conductors and a few are also listed for use fine stranded conductors.

Retorquing is never a good thing, but NFPA 70B provides to checking the torque at no more than 90% of the original value.
 
stang623 said:
I did call Burndy and they stated that the pins are UL listed for Breakers and Panelboards, don_resqcapt19, is Burndy the brand you were speaking about?
Click to expand...
I am talking about all manufacturers of pin adapters with solid pins. There is at least one manufacturer of pin adapters with stranded pins.

I know that the manufacturer's of the pin adapters have the adapters listed and I know that they will tell you that you can use the solid pin adapters for breakers and other equipment with mechanical terminations. However the breaker listing standard, UL 489, by reference to other UL standards, says that breaker terminations for conductors larger than 8 AWG are only suitable for use with Class B and C stranded conductors. I am not aware of any breaker manufacturer that has said you can use solid pin adapters with their breakers.

Also see post #6 in this old thread.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
I am talking about all manufacturers of pin adapters with solid pins. There is at least one manufacturer of pin adapters with stranded pins.

I know that the manufacturer's of the pin adapters have the adapters listed and I know that they will tell you that you can use the solid pin adapters for breakers and other equipment with mechanical terminations. However the breaker listing standard, UL 489, by reference to other UL standards, says that breaker terminations for conductors larger than 8 AWG are only suitable for use with Class B and C stranded conductors. I am not aware of any breaker manufacturer that has said you can use solid pin adapters with their breakers.

Also see post #6 in this old thread.
Click to expand...
well thats just great...lol. couple months back i had to run some 2/0 (welding cable) for cam lock set-up. Thought i was doing good by getting the solid pin connectors for the c.b. lesson learned. saving that link too. thanks!
 
stang623 said:
I've had several quotes over the years with 5 or so local outfits to do the work and whenever I ask about aluminum they look at me like I'm crazy.

No one ever gives a solid reason of why, answers always more along the lines of "I'm not real comfortable with that." This is why I was so worried about the plan?

Its hard to find anyone with a crimper they all have to rent one.
Click to expand...
I like to tell them there are miles of aluminum conductors between the power plant and their facility, but if they think their 100 feet of copper is going to make the difference then...
 
stang623 said:
Guys I really appreciated all the feedback. We are responsible for the money on the installation of these two panels/wire pulls which is why we are looking to save some money. I wish I could just charge them for it. Just got quote back on wire...looks like aluminum is about $3,500 and copper is $11,500. We are looking to do aluminum cause even if we buy a crimper for this job we will still save over the copper wires.
Click to expand...
Everything is negotiable, but this decision should be made considering more than just the cost difference in materials. Based on your numbers, the difference is about $8000. Is it worth $8000 to make your new tenant happy and to not have to deal with any potential electrical issues being first blamed on your use of aluminum conductors? If you use aluminum, you will have to defend that decision to the tenant every time a piece of their equipment isn't working correctly.

Even though you are responsible for the cost of the installation, you could still offer copper as a betterment. The base number would be to use aluminum and would be no cost to the tenant. You could offer up going to copper for a cost of $8000 to the tenant. You could also look at adjusting the lease to recapture the added cost of the materials.
 
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