Am I charging too much?

[celtic]

Obviously, the question cannot be answered without knowing my financial obligations and responsibilities...but humor me, and try any way

The last few new/remodel residential jobs I have bid on did not come my way. This leads me to believe "Am I charging too much?"
For new construction, the prices I am charging are:
$30 per recept, single pole switch or lighting outletlocation(fixture not included; includes box, 30' wire, device and plate)
$45 per 3/4 way location (includes box, 30' wire, device and plate)
$50 per GFCI location (includes box, 30' wire, device and plate)
$75 per smoke/co head (line voltage;includes box, 30' wire, device and plate)
$100 per ceiling fan location(fixture not included; includes box, 20' wire) or recessed can (IC, with 75w lamp and baffle trim)
$50 per LV application (CATV, Tele, etc...includes 50' cable, 2 connectors, box and wall plate)
Home runs are factored into the per item price, not including the CB or the load centers.
I charge seperately for the service/load centers, AC connections, hot tubs, jacuzzis, etc.

Basically, that's the short version of the price sheet - naturally, Decora devices is an add, ICAT cans are an add, etc.

On a remodel, house essentially gutted, no prints to speak of - the prices are about 25% higher.

Any commentary?

 

[GG]

Re: Am I charging too much?

Celtic, your prices are about in line with mine. The reason you may not be getting work with those prices is due to the fact that there are handymen and wannabe electricians out there stealing these jobs from you. So when you go to a customer with your prices that have the expense of running a legitimate business included in them they are alot higher then the handyman who is just looking to get some "12 pack" money to tie him over until his phone rings again. The best you can do is if you bid the job and are told "thats way to high, I got a guy that can do it for half that" is do a follow up in about a week. Drive by the job site and see who actually started the job, call the city and see if an electrical permit was issued. I know this can be time consuming and hard to find the time for, but thats the only way we are going to eliminate these vermin who are stealing our work.

 

[augie47]

Re: Am I charging too much?

Amen, GC,
come to our neck of the woods where the homeowner is allowed to procure a permit for his dwelling (with restrictions, often overlooked).
along comes "joe 12 pack", no liability insurance, no workers comp, no health insurance, etc....his only overhead is the 1985 station wagon, 4 frayed cords and his drill motor.....
if times are tight he will get the owner to purchase the material..$1 a sq ft and a quart and he's ready to go...
compete with that

 

[jeff43222]

Re: Am I charging too much?

I wholeheartedly agree. Around these parts, it doesn't take much to get the inspectors involved when illegal work is underway. I've been called in a couple of times when illegal work was reported (in both cases, the HO was not eligible to pull a permit). The address got flagged, and the HO had no choice but to hire a licensed EC.

One thing I also like to do is make it obvious to potential customers that they are dealing with a pro and not some guy with a truck and a hammer. I go over things thoroughly, explain options and code requirements, as well as explain the permit/inspection process. I figure the hacks aren't going to do all that. Several times people have told me they hired me because I seemed like I had my act together much more than some of the handymen they had called.

My thinking is that if people want Wal-Mart prices, they're going to get Wal-Mart quality, and they aren't the kind of people who I'd want business or referrals from. I'm certainly not going to try to compete with hacks on price.

 

[JES2727]

Re: Am I charging too much?

Celtic,
I've only been contracting full-time for about a year now. My background is in commercial / industrial work so I'm still finding my way as far as residential pricing. I've been reading these forums for several months. We're from the same general area so whenever you've posted pricing details I pay close attention.Your numbers are almost always higher than mine. Sometimes alot higher. I credit this to you're being more experienced as a contractor so I've reacted by gradually raising my prices. I don't want to be the hack that's busting his hump to just break even and driving prices down for everyone else. If you're getting $100 for a recessed can, why am I only getting $80? Well, not any longer. I like your numbers, and I'm trying to meet them. You shouldn't be dropping down to meet mine. I guess it's the guys your bidding against that need to get the messsage.

John

 

[celtic]

Re: Am I charging too much?

Originally posted by GG:

The reason you may not be getting work with those prices is due to the fact that there are handymen and wannabe electricians out there stealing these jobs from you.

The last house was started by a legit EC (see Just for fun (another bid).... )...he bailed.

My price was about 26k, reduced to 21.5 for the work done by the other guy. The HO stated the other ECs (he had another number from another established EC in town) price was 13.5.
My price included a host of items not on the print - but asked for...ie, 20 surface mounted flores, 4 exhaust fans, fixture lift, etc.

Either we did NOT bid on the same job, or my prices are too high ~ calculated incorrectly.

Since our numbers are similar, are they calculated similarily? For example(s):
- a duplex recept./single pole switch @ $30 includes the box, wire, staples, device, wirenuts, tape, plate and labor. The number does not include the CB, but does include the homerun (assuming this is a general purpose outlet).
- a jacuzzi/hyromassage (bathroom whirlpool), I charge $150...#12 from home, dead front GFCI and box, connection under unit - but no CB.
- light fixture (surface mount) @ $30 would include box, wire, staples, wirenuts, tape, fixture mounting and labor - but no fixture or allowance.
Am I doing the math right? This is really ticking me off

If we tossed caution to the wind, and tried it as a sq. ft price(4830 on print as "living space"/ 5833 perimeter measurement)...working backwards from the per item price of 21.5, we get 4.45/3.69 - respectively. Using the other ECs numbers of 13.5 I get 2.80/2.31 - respectively.

I also ran the numbers with an estimating program/spreadsheet. I stopped adding items when I hit 13.5 - before adding in OH&P or even tax.

If I plan on being in this business for any duration of time, I need to get this figured out.


**************

Originally posted by augie47:
the homeowner is allowed to procure a permit for his dwelling (with restrictions, often overlooked).

We have that here (NJ) but ONLY for SFH, this will be a duplex of sort ? A legit EC must do this job.

**************

Originally posted by jeff43222:

My thinking is that if people want Wal-Mart prices, they're going to get Wal-Mart quality, and they aren't the kind of people who I'd want business or referrals from. I'm certainly not going to try to compete with hacks on price.

Those are my sentiments also, but it seems as I am competeing with no one - my number is higher than even the legit ECs who have been at it for 40+ years, so I am not even considered.

 

[celtic]

Re: Am I charging too much?

Originally posted by JES2727:

Your numbers are almost always higher than mine. Sometimes alot higher. I credit this to you're being more experienced as a contractor so I've reacted by gradually raising my prices.

Very interesting JES...I appreciate the local feedback. Thank you.

I can't see $80 per can...if it's a basic 6-Inch Recessed IC New Construction, Halo (H7ICATH), PAR 20 50w flood, Coilex Baffle Light Trim, 10' of 14/2 your cost per complete can is $34.07 ...adding in labor of 1.2 hours at $35/hr ...your total cost is $77.47 - did I mention that NO markup, OH&P, or tax has been added? Those numbers are completey shot if the can must be AT/fire rated ...where the fixture price alone can be $80 (no bulb, trim, labor, etc)

Yet, you do give me more credit than I feel I deserve - if I deserved it, I would be out working and not b*tching here
Than again, everytime we have one of the "Just for fun" posts, my numbers are usually in line with other NJ ECs..go figure

Maybe I need to try another supply house for better pricing?

[ July 21, 2005, 05:40 PM: Message edited by: celtic ]

 

[mdshunk]

Re: Am I charging too much?

Let the other guy do the job for the 13K, and then go see him in a few months and hire him to work for you. I suspect he'll be looking to get out of the biz..

 

[celtic]

Re: Am I charging too much?

Originally posted by mdshunk:
Let the other guy do the job .... I suspect he'll be looking to get out of the biz..

The "other guy" is starting to get on my nerves...LOL.
I doubt he/they will out of business ~ all names dropped where established, respected ECs in town (don't know about the respected part anymore on the one that bailed).

 

[growler]

Re: Am I charging too much?

Celtic, Sure the guy drops the names of legit contractors. You said the HO was a business man, he probably has more experience at negotiation than you do. He is going to play you the same way he played the first EC. I can see it all now. He asked the first contractor for a bid on 5500 sq. ft. with no prints available and no contract. The guy gives a basic cost ( to code ) bid and then the lighting plan shows up. The EC goes to the HO and says I'm going to need 10K more, and the HO says no way, and then the EC walks. So now the HO tries to stick someone else with the job. He may do that but it will not be those contractors that he named. They have been around and will smell a rat a mile away . The jobs that you get to bid on make more difference than the prices that you charge.

 

[mdshunk]

Re: Am I charging too much?

Perhaps the EC that bid 13K is going to play the "change order game", and he'll end up at 26K you bid at in the end. We've all seen it before. A guy bids exactly what is asked for... nothing more, nothing less. Then, change order after change order gets submitted in order to make a functional and compliant installation.

 

[celtic]

Re: Am I charging too much?

Some of what you have said is true, Growler...but I still can't assume my number was accurate.
The HO is a businessman and probably does have more experience in the art of negotiations. I also agree that he trying to play a game...but why play a game with a family friend that is also an EC (the first guy).
The lighting print may be a factor...although my copy has them drawn on it, this may not have been the case 3 or 4 months ago on the original draft...the HO must have said 4 - 5 times "...and about 30 - 40 HHs.." (my count was 44). So we can add another 5k onto the 13.5 for 18.5..I guess???...and then the fixture lift (1.5) 20k...and then re-working the service to accomadate the extra lighting load...a 200A service for 5ksq.ft. house and a .5k sq.ft. apt seemed weak to me (considering the 4 AC condensors/ and AHUs). Add the 4 AC/AHUs, the service, the 200A and 100A sub-panel, the apts 100A panel and 26k seems pretty damn accurate to me....and yet I didn't get the job.

 

[celtic]

Re: Am I charging too much?

Here's the specs...you guys tell me (all wiring is romex):
3 Story wood frame structure, all above grade
24 - S1
12 - S3
11 - S Fan/Light
7 - SD
74 - Duplex
5 - Simplex
18 - GFCI
2 - Fireplaces (gas self-contained)
1 - Hydro massage(bathtub style)
1 - Attic fan
32 ? Ceiling boxes
12 ? Ceiling fans
44 ? recessed cans(supplied by EC)
12 ? Smoke/CO heads
3 ? Tele jacks
7 ? Cable/SAT locations
2 ? Computer stations (CAT5)
4 ? AC/AHUs (1 AHU located in attic, 3 AHU located in central utility room w/200A panel and data/com board)
15 ?2 lamp surface mounted flores.(supplied by EC)
5 ? 1 lamp surface mounted flores.(supplied by EC)
4 ? bath exhaust fans(supplied by EC)
1 - fixture lift and LV key switch(supplied by EC)
5 ? WP GFCI locations
6 ? exterior lighting locations
1 ? 30? run of ?? PVC w/drag for future use
2 ? 100A panels
1 ? 200A panel
1 - 200A overhead service to meter/main stack(2 meters).

Let?s not forget?there is no kitchen detail and I guesstimated on it?.lighting(8 recessed per request) and outlets (6 device locations, including 1 on an island) and allowed for refig, rangehood, dishwasher.
Heating/cooking is Natural Gas.

All for: $_________.____

[ July 21, 2005, 08:14 PM: Message edited by: celtic ]

 

[celtic]

Re: Am I charging too much?

Originally posted by mdshunk:
Perhaps the EC that bid 13K is going to play the "change order game", and he'll end up at 26K you bid at in the end.

That is my question...am I calculating/figuring it wrong?
I'm sure some ECs depend on the adds/changes/moves/extras to make up for a sloppy bid. I think it's more honest to give them a price for everything they have asked for. Maybe I am wrong in my thought process and should just say "ok, to wire it up per print is 16k, whatever else you want is an extra"?..or just say it's 16k and pummel them later when it's too late for them to change their minds on what EC to use.

 

[growler]

Re: Am I charging too much?

Celtic, did someone already start on the job? The first EC may not be in a hurry to release his permit. He'll have to sign a release before anyone else can permit the job ( that's the way it works here, to keep county from assuming any responsibility for unpaid work). The more time there is before the job starts the more reality sinks in. I still think people will be leery of this guy and that means the price will be high. The owner's only hope is to find a sucker that acts before thinking.

 

[celtic]

Re: Am I charging too much?

There were permits pulled..how, I don't know as this city REQUIRES a written contract on any job over $200.
Anyone working those specs up?

 

[bigjohn67]

Re: Am I charging too much?

according to your specs and considering that the ceiling are no more than 10ft in height

$29,200 (+/-)

I say you are giving an accurate bid. Let the other guy do the job. Have a life raft ready when he starts to sink.

Then when the owner ask you to finish what the cheap guy couldn't- Turn him down cold turkey.

 

[celtic]

Re: Am I charging too much?

One of the bedrooms (MBR) has a cathederal ceiling - about 15' at highest point...this room gets a CF at about a 12' height; the entry foyer is about 40' - the fixture lift must go above this area with the LV keyed switch discretly hidden in a closet under the spiral staircase. Otherwise, ceilings on average are 9'3".

Thanks for working the numbers.