Am I just being a pain in the..

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sfav8r

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OK, to make a long story short, I got called onto a job by a general. The actual construction was done 10 years ago by another "contractor" without a license and therefore without permits.

Somehow the city became aware of the addition and required to home owner to open sheet rock to inspect plumbing/electrical, yada, yada, yada.

I marked the walls for the GC to indicate where the wires were running to minimize the tearout. They then cut troughs to expose the wires. On one of the switch loops, the previous hack didn't seem to think it was necessary to bother drilling holes through the ceiling joists to run the romex from the switch to the light. Instead, they stapled to the bottom and notched the sheet rock (no, I'm not joking). As if this wasn't bad enough, they also didn't feel it was necessary to mark the sheet rock, so there was an 1-1/4 sheet rock screw right through the romex. How this never tripped a breaker or burnt the house down is amazing, because as soon as I grabbed the wire, it started sparking at the screw.

Any way. After observing this fine craftsmanship, I advised the general that the tearout that had been done was not sufficient. That in the interest of safety, ALL WIRING that was done for the remodel should be inspected. My argument was simple. Anyone that woould do that kind of work would do it again somewhere else.

The GC seems to think I'm over reacting. They think that it was an isolated thing because the rest of the remodel seems OK. My point is, we don't know that because we haven't seen the rest of the work.

To me, this one isn't even debatable. What do you guys think? If I'm just being a pain in the tail, please speak up with you opposing view because I am so one-sided on this I can't even play devils advocate.

Thanks.
 
Re: Am I just being a pain in the..

I cant argue with what you are saying at all.

IMHO all of the wiring that could have been done at that same time needs to be inspected.
 
Re: Am I just being a pain in the..

Well, call for an inspection and see what the inspector wants to see.
Either the contractor is right or you can say I told you so.

A call to the inspector before hand is in order ;)
 
Re: Am I just being a pain in the..

If push comes to shove, I'm sure the electrical inspector sees it the same way. Also, are they going back on your insurance if something happens to this wiring in the future? No brainer here.
 
Re: Am I just being a pain in the..

I'm wondering what your job is in all of this. Are you supposed to certify the previous work? Are you only supposed to fix any problems that are discovered? Since the city is calling for the walls to be opened up, aren't they calling for all the walls to be opened up?

I agree with everyone else on this one. When you found the screw through the switch loop, that was enough to consider the entire electrical installation suspect. I'd insist on opening up everything or invite them to find someone else to take responsibility.

[ December 13, 2005, 01:02 PM: Message edited by: jeff43222 ]
 
Re: Am I just being a pain in the..

Document what you find.

Photo the mistakes uncovered.

Have a simple, but clear, paper trail of what you actually put your tools to.

Give letter to the Owner and GC expressing suspicion of same bad techniques being used in un-inspected areas of occupancy, and include recommendation.

Document any responses, or the lack thereof.

Put all the job file together in one container and put it in with the long term record storage. Mark the container, "Destroy only when I'm dead."
 
Re: Am I just being a pain in the..

First I want to also say that I agree with you. You only opened a small part of what was done and already discovered some rather dangerous situations. Seems to call for further investigation. I do have a question, however. Is there a statute of limitations on uninspected work? Since this work was done 10 years ago, does the knowledge that the city now has gained give them the right to force the homeowner to open it up again? Obviously, it is a good idea but I'm questioning the legality of this expense to the homeowner, regardless if the past work was done right or wrong.

Bob
 
Re: Am I just being a pain in the..

"I marked the walls for the GC to indicate where the wires were running"

If the job is as bad as you think how could you know where the wires are running. :D
 
Re: Am I just being a pain in the..

Originally posted by sfav8r:


Somehow the city became aware of the addition and required to home owner to open sheet rock to inspect plumbing/electrical, yada, yada, yada.
Click to expand...
Seems cut and dry to me.

The city wants to see it, your ins. may become liable as you are going to sign off on the install, etc.

I say: RIP IT OUT.

Contact the city, inform them of the errors you have uncovered(paper trail), inform the GC of your actions (CC) and inform the HO of same (CC). Either have the City, GC and HO sign for the letter - send it Certified Return Reciept if neccessary.

The HO will NOT want to have all this work done - they don't want to pay.
The GC will NOT want to do all this work - who will pay?
The city wants a higher tax ratable, but are they "code nazis"? This may be the deciding factor as to what actually gets done there. If YOU are not comfortable with the decision - walk away.
 
Re: Am I just being a pain in the..

I'm not sure I understand what your role is in the current project? Are you there for consultation only or are you supposed to do electrical work and bring the wiring up to code?
If I was simply consulting I would suggest they inspect all of the wiring.
If I were taking responsibility for the work, I would insist on inspecting all of the wiring.

Dave
 
Re: Am I just being a pain in the..

I would call the electrical inspector and set up a meeting preferably along with the building inspector and the GC MAYBE EVEN THE HOME OWNER.Simply show them what you found.Let them make the call.If i did do any work on this it would be with a signed letter and record it at the court house so future buyers will see the title blemish.If they won't go for this then walk away.
 
Re: Am I just being a pain in the..

Originally posted by bthielen:
First I want to also say that I agree with you. You only opened a small part of what was done and already discovered some rather dangerous situations. Seems to call for further investigation. I do have a question, however. Is there a statute of limitations on uninspected work? Since this work was done 10 years ago, does the knowledge that the city now has gained give them the right to force the homeowner to open it up again? Obviously, it is a good idea but I'm questioning the legality of this expense to the homeowner, regardless if the past work was done right or wrong.

Bob
Click to expand...
In this case, as you mentioned, it's a good thing that it's being looked at. Having said that, if the house was mine, the first call I would have made after the city contacted me would have been to an attorney. I don't know the legality, but even here in the republic of San Francisco where there seems to be a general lack of ability to grasp the concept of private property, I find it hard to believe the HO wouldn't have some rights.
 
Re: Am I just being a pain in the..

I was originally contacted by the GC (Who I have done work for in the past). They knew I had a good circuit tracer and hired me to mark the sheet rock along the path of the wires to minimize the tearout (as a side note, every wires was located dead-on, I love that thing).

After I did that, I was supposed to be done. However, I noticed in one of the switch boxes that there was #12 going in and #14 going out so I checked the breaker and it was a 20a, so I started poking around a little and one thing lead to another. There were numerous places where they had run a long run of #12 to a j-box then branched off of that with 4-5 #14 runs and all on a 20a breaker. I also pointed out the absence of smokes, no GFCI in bathroom, bathroom recept on 15a fed with #14, etc. After hearing this, they asked me to come back and "get it ready for inspection."

So basically, there has not been a real clear definition of my role due to the way it evolved.

As an update, I told them today that I would continue on the job, but that I wanted to meet with the inspector on-site and be sure I understood what he felt the scope was. They agreed to have their guys tear out enough to make me confortable that the installation was safe.

Thank for all your input. I will DEFINITELY take the advice of Al and make good notes of what I actually touched. That's a good idea.
 
Re: Am I just being a pain in the..

For your viewing pleasure, here are a couple of pictures of the romex I referrenced. Like I said. it's amazing the breaker didn't nuisance trip....or much worse.


ls1.jpg



ls2.jpg
 
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