Amish sue NY town over building codes.

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Minuteman

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The following is a Fox News article about building codes and the Amish.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,477110,00.html

Note: I edited out the parts that were background info about their faith/history.

WATERTOWN, N.Y. ? Eleven Old Order Amish families filed a religious discrimination lawsuit in federal court Tuesday, claiming a northern New York community is targeting them for building code enforcement.

The Amish families claim the town of Morristown has refused to issue building permits that would allow them to practice their religion and build homes according to their beliefs.

The Amish said if they cannot build their homes and farms in their traditional ways, they will be forced to sell their homes and property and leave.

<snip>

Building codes are established by the state and enforced by towns, villages and cities. Morristown officials said they updated their 22-year-old building codes in 2006 based on a model law provided by the state. The code requires new and existing structures "to keep pace with advances in technology in fire protection and building construction."

<snip>

... They don't deny building houses without permits and have said they were willing to purchase building permits, but contend the requirements of the codes ? such as having smoke detectors, submitting engineering plans and allowing inspections ? violate their religious beliefs.

Before 2006, the Swartzentruber Amish in Morristown were granted building permits and allowed to build their structures according to traditional standards and customs without interference, according to the 37-page lawsuit filed in U.S. District Court in Watertown.

<snip>

The judge ruled the building code law "was put in place for the safety of all in mind and without discrimination."

However, the lawsuit noted that there have been no building collapses, fires, or other public emergencies that would provide the town with a compelling interest to enforce the building code on the Amish.

The sect has had zoning disputes with local authorities elsewhere in New York, as well as Pennsylvania and Wisconsin.

I'm not sure what I think about this. I HIGHLY respect their traditions and faith. Yet, can any other group exempt themselves from building codes? If I build a new house, can I exempt myself from NEC 2008 because AFCI's and TR's because they are against my religion? (Just kidding :grin:)
 
Some times dove tailed joints and wooden dows can hold better then nails.
Series wired smokes would be kind of hard to install with out electricity in the house.:D
I side with the Amish on this one. How ever their does need to be a median some where.
Like not selling homes to non Amish.

The Amish got my respect. The way they acted after that Pennsylvaina school house shooting.
They publicly forgave the man that killed thier children. Then helped his wife with some of her needs.
 
I in part side with the Amish. I believe that they should be subject to building codes and inspections, but I believe that they have a very strong case that they should be subject to modified building codes.

Building codes do not exist in a vacuum; they derive from a combination of available technology, understanding of costs and risks, politics, and an understanding of how the buildings will be used.

For example, the requirements for small appliance receptacles on a kitchen counter are in part based upon a common understanding of the number of kitchen appliances that people have and the power that they consume...clearly this common understanding is radically wrong with respect to this community.

We apply different building codes to different occupancies, and this is a large enough population that they could support developing a building code that was on par with the local community standards, but which better suited the local community.

I think that it would be reasonable to require the Amish community to respond with alternative approaches that put them on par with the local building codes, but which better fit their community.

I am surprised that the Amish have not adopted the use of smoke detectors. These do not require them to be 'on the grid', and do not require that they be more dependant upon the surrounding mundane population. But they do significantly improve safety in the event of a fire. My understanding is that rather than rejecting technology, they carefully control the adoption of technology to make sure it fits their idea of how their community should develop. See, for example, their use of LED lighting on their buggies.

-Jon
 
Really - more power to them!

While I beleive if you are going to install electricity in your home it should be to code. However I do not think you should be forced to put something you do not want in your home.

While many of our building codes, zoning and construction laws deal with consumer protection as much as being intertwined with safety, and public safety. IMO if you build your home, and it is only you, and your family to live in it both safety and consumer protection is the hands of the builder - you. Who is to sue - you. Who is to blame - you. And at least if the house does burn down - it wont be an electrical fire...

Say they all leave, and go get a new BMW and a condo in NYC, and start drinking peach martinis - they will of course be living by different rules and be something else. But if they want to remain in a simpler time and not be no futher than 6' from an outlet, or a step away from a light switch - let 'em.
 
Okay, I can agree with the simple life concept. And dove tailed joints and wooden dowels may just hold better than nail. How about a Amish code? Call it option "A".

There should be a code written that fits their lifestyle and a minimum safety standard. How many dowels does it take to hold up this header? So forth. Could they not reach a compromise using battery smoke detectors?

Have someone in there community to be deputized as a code official. A little accountability never hurt anyone. :smile:
 
This copied from the news article: "Before 2006, the Swartzentruber Amish in Morristown were granted building permits and allowed to build their structures according to traditional standards and customs without interference, according to the 37-page lawsuit filed in U.S. District Court in Watertown.
However, since 2006, Morristown officials have brought more than 10 separate prosecutions against the Amish, the lawsuit said.
The 17-count complaint alleged that Morristown code enforcement officer Lanetta Kay Davis, who was appointed in 2006, has selectively issued a number of code violations to the Amish. The complaint also alleged that she has posted messages at an anti-Amish Web site and zealously enforced the code, even issuing tickets on off-hours after making unannounced visits to Amish homes to conduct intrusive inspections."

One can clearly see that the problem develops out of inconsistent enforcement. Prior to 2006 the "Inspector" worked with the sect to gain a measure of compliance that was satisfactory to both parties.........but after 2006, enter an overly zealous inspector who conducted surprise inspections after business hours......it's always the same...people who cannot handle authority and who personalize "violations". It seems the more these mentally-fragile inspectors read in the law books the more aggressive they become.......all the while hiding behind the text of law while promoting their own hidden, often-times evil agendas.:mad:

More power to the Amish.
 
Without emotion, I present the following documentation that indicates, no matter how we feel, it is about legalities that will be decided in court. The very birth of our nation came from this document, it's called "The Declaration of Independence".

The Declaration of Independence: A Transcription


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.


Ben Franklin was right beyond his years when he said about our government "It's a republic if you can keep it"

I feel for the Amish, but believe, that unless they can mount a very effective campaign, that this battle is lost before it starts.. I maybe wrong (actually hope I am) but there can be serious consequences, with far reaching tennacles from a landmark court decison from this. Been involved a little bit with a legal battle before, but the damages run deep. For what it was worth, we got a public apology from Gail Norton (Seccretary of the Interior) but it was to little, to late. Five died from health probems, others bancrupt, lot of battle scars, and very little satisfaction even today from the final decision.

Choose your battles carefully!
 
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enter an overly zealous inspector ....it's always the same...people who cannot handle authority and who personalize "violations". It seems the more these mentally-fragile inspectors read in the law books the more aggressive they become.......all the while hiding behind the text of law while promoting their own hidden, often-times evil agendas.:mad:

More power to the Amish.

I think you nailed it.
 
I live around the Amish in Chester County Pa, I say leave the Amish alone. They have been doing fine for hundreds of years living by their own codes and standards according to their religious beliefs. I just don't understand why someone always has to fix something that isn't broken.
 
I live around the Amish in Chester County Pa, I say leave the Amish alone. They have been doing fine for hundreds of years living by their own codes and standards according to their religious beliefs. I just don't understand why someone always has to fix something that isn't broken.

because government is the exercise of raw force backed up by guys with guns. thats just the way it is.

for way too long we have allowed building codes to be a way of enforcing norms on society primarily to benefit a very few financially. I hope the Amish go to court and win, and get huge damages too.
 
The following is a Fox News article about building codes and the Amish.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,477110,00.html

Note: I edited out the parts that were background info about their faith/history.



I'm not sure what I think about this. I HIGHLY respect their traditions and faith. Yet, can any other group exempt themselves from building codes? If I build a new house, can I exempt myself from NEC 2008 because AFCI's and TR's because they are against my religion? (Just kidding :grin:)
The Govt. exempts HUD housing from them!:mad:
 
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One can clearly see that the problem develops out of inconsistent enforcement. Prior to 2006 the "Inspector" worked with the sect to gain a measure of compliance that was satisfactory to both parties.........but after 2006, enter an overly zealous inspector who conducted surprise inspections after business hours......it's always the same...people who cannot handle authority and who personalize "violations". It seems the more these mentally-fragile inspectors read in the law books the more aggressive they become.......all the while hiding behind the text of law while promoting their own hidden, often-times evil agendas.:mad:

More power to the Amish.

I have had my share of problems from inspectors with hidden agendas. I will no longer play devil's advocate in this issue. I hope they win, big time! :smile:
 
Now that we have all read the article and a few of us have voiced our opinions I am closing the thread.

Roger
 
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