Amish wiring

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mgookin said:
In Florida we have an indian tribe exempt from the building code when buildng a chickeee (think thatched pavillion). The exemption applies to the whole state, not just on indian reservations. They're most commonly erected at entertainment venues with a bar, seating, dancing, stage, etc.
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That seems very odd.
 
growler said:
I'm not sure you could legally give preferential treatment to a particular group of people. ...
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Hummm ... Pick up a newspaper. I'd say there 500+ (unless there are 5000+). The biggest issue I have is: being a 60+, working, white guy, I'm not part of any one of them. Well, that and most everything that is wrong is somehow my fault.

Of course there is legislation favoring demographic groups. And if the legislature won't do it, then the courts will.

ice
 
mgookin said:
...I've often wondered why we don't have solar panels and 12Vdc lighting for homes. Simple automotive bulbs/ sockets/ batteries/ etc. and you don't even need an inverter.
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Money? Do you want 12V and 120V or just 12V? And don't forget the batteries - and maintenance on the batteries. And extra money for the fixtures and bulbs - one needs a bit more than automotive in the kitchen.

ice
 
iceworm said:
Money? Do you want 12V and 120V or just 12V? And don't forget the batteries - and maintenance on the batteries. And extra money for the fixtures and bulbs - one needs a bit more than automotive in the kitchen.

ice
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You'd still need grid a/c but think of all the dc appliances we have. DC lighting is simple and then all of our stereos, tv's, computers, etc. all have rectifiers in them because those things run on DC anyway.

A/C for hot water, air conditioning, refrigerator, etc.; the big loads.

But we could do a lot with dc in a home with a separate system. Panels, charge controller, batteries.
 
Religious exemptions

Religious exemptions

The Amish already have many exemptions from federal and state laws.

They do not pay Social Security Tax nor, I believe, Medicare Taxes. There is a general exemption for them, because they agree not to use the services. Don't know about ACA [Obamacare]. Some priests and nuns are also exempt (vow of poverty).

Amish are exempt from some aspects of compulsory education and credential requirements for teachers.

Unlike churches and parsonages they are probably not exempt from real estate taxes.

Outside municipalities in WV the only electrical inspection is for service entrance, is that the same in IN? If so, inspection problem solved.

Depending on the sect they may not use POCO power because it "connects them with the world" nor have a telephone in the residence. Barns are often looser, originally from state sanitation laws (milk coolers, ...).
 
I'll see if i can't get some answers around here pertaining to Amish building new homes and what's required. I know there are Amish electricians so I guess they'd get the contracts ;) I seem to remember hearing that any new home built in PA must be wired to code, but it doesn't have to get hooked up to the POCO if it's the residence of an Amish owner. IIRC the argument was that building a home outside of the generally accepted standards would make it unsaleable and effectively force that property to remain in Amish hands forever so even if it's not forced on them to do so, I think the majority would build the home to modern standards for resale options. I don't think I've ever actually seen any Amish building a whole house from the ground up around here, so it's an interesting question.

Based on what I see locally, Amish are moving towards electric lights for businesses and homes using low volt medium based corn bulb LEDs. There are adapters made for DeWalt tool batteries with a medium based socket on it which you'll see hanging from the ceilings of Amish stores and homes. Having a few porcelain pullchains around the house with low voltage in it would make their lives easier, for sure. They also need to charge their cell phones, so a few outlets for that would probably be needed until they figure out about USB outlets.
 
102 Inspector said:
Currently there are no local ordinances which address this type of installation. Previously the jurisdiction had homes with no electrical, but they had them place battery RF smoke detectors. I think it was a office policy and not an ordinance. Now that new homes are proposing some electrical to be installed, but not full compliance, the inspector is in a jamb on how to address them. He is trying to be fair to everyone, but realizes the lifestyles are different. I totally agree with the installation of existing homes affecting only the work being done, but these are new homes. I might have to call Pennsylvania and see how they apply this and see how it works in NE Indiana.
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growler said:
I don't see this as being the electrical inspector's problem. He doesn't have that kind of authority.

The way I see it if they apply for a building permit they would be required to meet code just like everyone else unless they apply for and recieve a variance that permits them to build somewhat less than code requires.

A variance is issued by those that do have the authory. This would keep it from putting the inspector in a jam.
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All depends on how other building and zoning works out, like I said earlier here the State Electrical Division has nothing to do with the counties, cities, villages and any building permits they issue, and if that particular city or county doesn't have it's own electrical AHJ, then the state steps in by default. They only get notification of a project when a permit is filed with their office, but if an inspector is on his way between jobs and sees new construction he will be stopping and asking some questions from whoever is there if he doesn't have any permit for that project.

growler said:
I'm not sure you could legally give preferential treatment to a particular group of people.
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I don't want to turn this thread the wrong direction, but the Amish are partly about avoiding the wrath of the government, and have claimed religious preference as reasons to get their way with a lot of things - I will not comment on whether it is right or wrong, but it has happened and will continue to happen, and not just with this one group of people. fmtjfw has already hit some things I was going to mention :

fmtjfw said:
The Amish already have many exemptions from federal and state laws.

They do not pay Social Security Tax nor, I believe, Medicare Taxes. There is a general exemption for them, because they agree not to use the services. Don't know about ACA [Obamacare]. Some priests and nuns are also exempt (vow of poverty).

Amish are exempt from some aspects of compulsory education and credential requirements for teachers.

Unlike churches and parsonages they are probably not exempt from real estate taxes.

Outside municipalities in WV the only electrical inspection is for service entrance, is that the same in IN? If so, inspection problem solved.

Depending on the sect they may not use POCO power because it "connects them with the world" nor have a telephone in the residence. Barns are often looser, originally from state sanitation laws (milk coolers, ...).
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Real estate taxes - around here they declare their homes as "a house of worship" and alternate having worship services from one home to another - it is legal, and I have heard of other people that do the same thing.
Payroll taxes - if they happen to be employed by others their employer must still deduct the usual payroll taxes, if they are self employed, farmers, or other self entity, they generally are exemtped. I know that some of the local Amish do work for some local farmers, and they use all the modern machines at their job, but not for their own farming.

The local Amish in this area - they don't drive road legal automobiles, there are several that do own and drive ATV's and other "off road" utility vehicles like the Honda Mule or John Deere Gator. Now it is legal to drive these vehicles on county roads here, but not legal to drive them on State highways, and in some cities or villages, so it is fair that they are allowed drive them as there are others that do as well - but the reason they drive them and not any "road legal" vehicles is to avoid paying vehicle taxes, or having to acquire drivers licenses.
 
kwired said:
All depends on how other building and zoning works out, like I said earlier here the State Electrical Division has nothing to do with the counties, cities, villages and any building permits they issue, and if that particular city or county doesn't have it's own electrical AHJ, then the state steps in by default. They only get notification of a project when a permit is filed with their office, but if an inspector is on his way between jobs and sees new construction he will be stopping and asking some questions from whoever is there if he doesn't have any permit for that project.
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My apprenticeship was down in Fremont back when the ONLY Authority Having Any Jurisdiction was the local power company which adopted the NEC as the enforceable standard, and jurisdiction ended two miles outside of the Fremont city limits. When the State Electrical Division was created later, I was grandfathered in with my Fremont Masters License. Given the reciprocity that has been worked out between MN and NE, and my background, I ask: what standard does the NE State Electrical Division enforce when they step in "by default"? Doesn't the State of NE adopt the NEC Statewide as a minimum electrical installation standard? And if the localities inside the State set up their own electrical AHJ, aren't they still bound by State statute to, at a minimum, start their electrical standard with the existing NEC as adopted by the State?
 
al hildenbrand said:
My apprenticeship was down in Fremont back when the ONLY Authority Having Any Jurisdiction was the local power company which adopted the NEC as the enforceable standard, and jurisdiction ended two miles outside of the Fremont city limits. When the State Electrical Division was created later, I was grandfathered in with my Fremont Masters License. Given the reciprocity that has been worked out between MN and NE, and my background, I ask: what standard does the NE State Electrical Division enforce when they step in "by default"? Doesn't the State of NE adopt the NEC Statewide as a minimum electrical installation standard? And if the localities inside the State set up their own electrical AHJ, aren't they still bound by State statute to, at a minimum, start their electrical standard with the existing NEC as adopted by the State?
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Yes the state has ultimate rule, the State Electrical Act does give local jurisdictions the ability to operate their own inspection programs. Those local programs must meet all State requirements but can be stricter with some rules then the State is.

One example receptacle spacing rules - NEC says a wall space 24 inches or more needs a receptacle - I have heard of locals that have set that to 18 inches, that would be allowed by state law, but to set it to 30 would not be allowed.

All State owned buildings - and public schools in a city with it's own program are still the jurisdiction of the state according to the State Electrical Act.
 
PetrosA said:
I seem to remember hearing that any new home built in PA must be wired to code, but it doesn't have to get hooked up to the POCO if it's the residence of an Amish owner.
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That makes sense as I don't think there is any law that anyone has to be connected to the power grid.

I had a job where a customer was odered by a Judge to have his power turned on. When I went to see the Building Code Official he said that there was no ordinance that required power to be turned on but that there was nothing he could do about the Judge's order.

The folks at the county were willing to work with me so we could get this guys power turned on in time to comply with a court order. The oder had to do with the Health Department and Child Services and nothing to do with Code Enforcement.
 
kwired said:
Real estate taxes - around here they declare their homes as "a house of worship" and alternate having worship services from one home to another - it is legal, and I have heard of other people that do the same thing.
Payroll taxes - if they happen to be employed by others their employer must still deduct the usual payroll taxes, if they are self employed, farmers, or other self entity, they generally are exemtped.
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These are not special laws for the Amish these are laws that anyone can take advantage of if they wish to do so.
 
growler said:
These are not special laws for the Amish these are laws that anyone can take advantage of if they wish to do so.
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The real estate taxes I agree with, social security - self employed people do not have social security and medicare taxes withheld but do pay "self employment tax" which is the equivalent of the employee and employer contribution of social security and medicare taxes. I don't believe this group of people pays that tax in general, but I could be wrong. If anything they have found legal ways to make any income non taxable more so then they don't have to pay tax, which is easier to do if you are not actively participating in today's modern society. You don't need extra money for fancy electronic toys automobiles, fancy homes, body makeovers and such. You earn what is needed to live on with minimal extras for a little fun once in a while, and give the rest to the church or other community functions.
 
kwired said:
social security - self employed people do not have social security and medicare taxes withheld but do pay "self employment tax" which is the equivalent of the employee and employer contribution of social security and medicare taxes.
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I looked it up and Congress did exempt the Amish from paying social security in 1965.


If I had known this I would have started my own very liberal and progressive branch of the Church a long time ago. The only thing needed to join would have been a straw hat and a picture of a horse and buggy ( any of that religious stuff optional ).
 
FWIW, in 2014 the NEC has amended the definition of premises wiring to include standalone systems. As I see it, the requirements of 210 would apply, whether they elected to energize the outlets or not.

But, in light of the preceding posts, I acknowledge this is a simplistic view.
 
Besoeker said:
I did wonder about a thread on Amish wiring.
Seems like a contradiction.
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Hard core Amish, unlikely. There is a sect known as "Mennonites" that are an off-shoot and they are far more accepting of modern ways of living. They retain the outward appearance in dress of the Amish, hence the confusion. Amish are mostly in Pennsylvania, Mennonites everywhere else.
 
gadfly56 said:
Hard core Amish, unlikely. There is a sect known as "Mennonites" that are an off-shoot and they are far more accepting of modern ways of living. They retain the outward appearance in dress of the Amish, hence the confusion. Amish are mostly in Pennsylvania, Mennonites everywhere else.
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Thank you for that.
I had read that they distance themselves from each other.
But if they are happy with their ways, good on them.
 
gadfly56 said:
Hard core Amish, unlikely. There is a sect known as "Mennonites" that are an off-shoot and they are far more accepting of modern ways of living. They retain the outward appearance in dress of the Amish, hence the confusion. Amish are mostly in Pennsylvania, Mennonites everywhere else.
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This summer I worked on a cabin built by an Amish crew. None of them had drivers licenses but they had power tools aplenty along with nail guns and gas chain saws.

Kind of scary watching them use them with their long beards. Kept thinking somebody's face was going to get sucked into the table saw.
 
Actually, there are a lot of Mennonites here in PA, probably more than there are Amish. Generally, they are split into two groups - Old Order Mennonites and regular Mennonites (or Reformed, or something else that sets them apart...). Regular Mennonites tend to look like anybody else. Hershey's Chocolate is Mennonite, as are almost 120% of the rest of the Hershey families in PA. Old Order Mennonites are usually more conservative, but to varying degrees. Some of their women dress similarly to the Amish with white or lace head dress over a bun and uniform colored dresses, whereas others just keep the bun and white or lace head dress. The men dress conservatively in some groups, although nowhere near as conservative as the Amish (think of the scary Anabaptist movie characters ;) ) or in the more modern groups, they just dress regularly like we do.

When I was a kid, the Old Order Mennonites were still required to drive black cars with no or minimal chrome. Nowadays you don't see that anymore. The non visible Mennonites are all over PA. They tend to have a larger than average number of above-normal intelligence kids. Out of maybe 12 kids in the gifted class I was in back in the 80s, about 8-10 came from Mennonite families. In later conversations with my teacher, she confirmed that throughout the years she taught, an overwhelming majority of the gifted kids were Mennonites. Interesting, but unexplained...
 
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