AMPS in the cold water pipe

[cschmid]

Mike maybe or maybe not. I don't think we should be telling a non-electrical professional if it is or not.

What if you were to measure the Service grounded conductor and it had 90 -amps, and the pipe was 9-amps? Is it a problem?

Now what if you measured say 10 amps on the service and 9 on the water pipe? Keep the answer to yourself, it is to make a point I think you and most understand.

Now there is a statement I can agree with..Here is a classic example of a non electrician making a diagnosis and getting a home owner upset potentially over nothing..now we end up with a legal hassle when the HO sues the HI for bad info because the HI does not want to pay the bill..If an Electrician was called to make the inspection in the first place..all of the describe circumstances could be avoided..

So is it OK for HI's to really be doing electrical inspections..so why do you not fight for you piece of the pie..

Yet I do disagree with the use of the water main as a GE I believe we cause more problems then we save..In this case it has become a GEC..If the power company maintained the GEC at ahigher level back to the transformer..we should not see the water main as a GEC as it is suppose to be a supplemental GE not a GEC..then the water pipe should not carry the unbalanced load..

Open mouth insert foot..:grin:

 

[al hildenbrand]

Because if you see 5 or 9 amps and write it up, then th ehome owner calls out an electrician to repair and finds it is normal. If I were the homeowner, YOU GET THE BILL.

On the other hand, simply making a note of a metal water service pipe current reading, that is, making the reading an information item, can be beneficial in a number of ways.

First: To my mind, those individuals and organizations, making use of the home inspector's report, will inescapably be educated about the presence of current on municipal metal water distribution systems. More awareness of the current will, hopefully, lead to altering the source of the current by instituting infrastructure changes on the line side of the occupancy service disconnect. Moving to a line side separation of grounded and grounding conductors with a single main bonding jumper and isolation from the power company primary side neutral will address a nest of problems. This will be largely a political effort, IMO, and the more people, the merrier. :wink:

Second: The presence, or absence of current on the water supply pipe is, in and of itself, only part of a "fact". The complete fact includes the rest of the currents entering and leaving the Main Bonding Jumper electrical node at any instant in time. A specialist (the electrician) can make a determination. The home inspector is more the general practicianer who can simply note a set of observations (that a specialist might in fact be alarmed by), and call out the glaring irregularities. The home inspector is going to get to a lot of properties an electrician has never seen, and seeing large currents on a water service pipe is an early indicator that something is potentially wrong in that building or the other buildings supplied by the same power company local transformer.

The current is there. . .the current may indicate real problems. To avoid taking the reading because there may not be problems doesn't make sense to me.

 

[dereckbc]

The solution to the problem, if it is problem as we can debate it all day long, is very simple via water utility requirement for service like we have here in my city. Either install a PVC pipe from the meter to the house, or if using copper use a dielectric fitting at the meter connection.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Either install a PVC pipe from the meter to the house, or if using copper use a dielectric fitting at the meter connection.

I have a regional difference.

All the water services I've seen (excluding private wells), on centralized water utilities, have the water meter inside the building. There is a utility controlled stop valve at the property line, but no meter box. With this, in all the existing buildings, the only option is to replace the buried water service pipe with plastic, if local plumbing codes permit.

 

[dereckbc]

I have a regional difference.

Yes Al I am aware of the regional differences. I have noticed especially up north where homes have basements the meter is set in the basement. How or why this practice was ever started is beyond me. It is foreign idea to me. Seems like it would be almost impossible for the meter reader to read.

In my area and all I have lived in OK amd TX the meter is out in the street next to the curb with a latteral line running back to the house. (we have front yards :grin: ) That line can either be PVC or copper. The house I live in now and built, in a new division, the water company requires either PVC or a dielectric coupling for the very purpose of eliminating current on th ecity water pipe system.

I have mixed feelings and can argue either way. In the long run I would say it is safer to break the path. I know plumbers and water utility workers would agree. Gas company sure will not allow their pipe to be used as an electrode.

 

[al hildenbrand]

in all the existing buildings, the only option is to replace the buried water service pipe with plastic, if local plumbing codes permit.

Dereck,

Up here, even slab homes have the meters inside the building.

I just got off the phone with a local plumbing contractor who verified with the Minneapolis plumbing inspector that, in fact, the pipe between the meter and the street can be nonmetallic. The only reservation was that the Water Utility itself might have a restriction on the type of connection to the supply side of the meter.

I don't know why it never occurred to me to consider such a question. At some point in the coming years the water supply pipe at my house will be upgraded, and I think I'll put in nonmetallic. The down side is that using current in the pipe to thaw a freeze won't work. . . but then, it's never frozen.

 

[al hildenbrand]

In the long run I would say it is safer to break the path.

I think so, as well.

There is still "Earthing", by other means, that handles voltage surges & stabilization, but, compared to the grounded service conductor impedance, is a significantly higher impedance return path to the transformer.

 

[dereckbc]

Dereck,

Up here, even slab homes have the meters inside the building.

I am a curious redneck from the south, WHY? Freezing?

 

[cschmid]

On the other hand, simply making a note of a metal water service pipe current reading, that is, making the reading an information item, can be beneficial in a number of ways.

First: To my mind, those individuals and organizations, making use of the home inspector's report, will inescapably be educated about the presence of current on municipal metal water distribution systems. More awareness of the current will, hopefully, lead to altering the source of the current by instituting infrastructure changes on the line side of the occupancy service disconnect. Moving to a line side separation of grounded and grounding conductors with a single main bonding jumper and isolation from the power company primary side neutral will address a nest of problems. This will be largely a political effort, IMO, and the more people, the merrier. :wink:

Second: The presence, or absence of current on the water supply pipe is, in and of itself, only part of a "fact". The complete fact includes the rest of the currents entering and leaving the Main Bonding Jumper electrical node at any instant in time. A specialist (the electrician) can make a determination. The home inspector is more the general practicianer who can simply note a set of observations (that a specialist might in fact be alarmed by), and call out the glaring irregularities. The home inspector is going to get to a lot of properties an electrician has never seen, and seeing large currents on a water service pipe is an early indicator that something is potentially wrong in that building or the other buildings supplied by the same power company local transformer.

The current is there. . .the current may indicate real problems. To avoid taking the reading because there may not be problems doesn't make sense to me.

I like your perspectives and would agree..yet who would the HI's file their reports with?? Would there be a standard implemented for the items tested by the HI's?? Would there be some training that is approved by a licensed electrical board?? This is really a good Idea for tracking of unbalanced loads and could aid in the stray voltage arena...

Al are you sure you are not part politician...

 

[cschmid]

I am a curious redneck from the south, WHY? Freezing?

LMAO I can tell you are from warm climates..here in MN we are located in 3 climate zones 2,3 & 4.. this means in the winter months of the year we can have a variety of temps that are below freezeing..like in the TC area it may only get to 20 below in the winter while in the Northern areas it can get down to 60 below..that is below zero degree farenhieght..so the ground will freeze from anywhere around 4 ft to 8 ft deep, depending on the area..

 

[al hildenbrand]

I am a curious redneck from the south, WHY? Freezing?

:grin:

Here, the frost line in winter is four feet. Buried water pipes are kept just below that.

I can just imagine, on a warm day, taking the lid off the meter pit, and laying down on my stomach and tipping into the hole to reach the valves, or to remount a meter. . . .let alone when there's a four foot high ice berm on top of it, from the snow / salt mixture that the plow pushed off the street.

There's also the practical matter of holding the ground "heat" (around 40?F) at the meter with some form of insulation sealed to prevent infiltration heat lose.

The Olde Guys, back when, decided to let the customers heat the meters for them instead.

Since the '80s, electronic means of reading the meters has all but eliminated the visit of the meter reader.

 

[al hildenbrand]

who would the HI's file their reports with??

The people that need their homes inspected, and all related parties to whatever it is that is causing the inspection to occur.

Would there be a standard implemented for the items tested by the HI's??

If it became a uniform part of the procedure, I'll bet they would implement their own standard.

Would there be some training that is approved by a licensed electrical board??

Probably not.

This is really a good Idea for tracking of unbalanced loads and could aid in the stray voltage arena...

That hadn't occurred to me. As we continue into the Information Age and this kind of data gathering is disseminated commonly on the Web (Here, we already have Truth-In-Sale-Of-Housing inspection reports attached to the permanent online property record), I think it is a logical next step to have specifics of the data ported into mine-able databases. Nice idea, Carl.

Al are you sure you are not part politician...

Yeesh!

I just like language, and lots of it.

 

[mikeames]

Not sure I can agree ,... if you grab the pipe with both hands a different points ,..now you are a parallel path and current will flow ,..if your wet and salty might be enough to kill,..even if not ,..I'm not sure I want even very small amounts of current running through my body...

shocking shower

It seems like we are always splitting hairs on this forum. I remember the shocking sower article from years back on this forum. Technically I disagree. with you although technically your factually correct.

1. Copper is obviously a much better conductor than human + dead skin resistance even when wet and salty so the VD across the pipe in you 6 foot arm span will be much less than that through your arms and chest.

2. Technically speaking you already have small amounts of of current flowing through your body naturally. If you really want to split hairs Ill bet you may have a small atmospheric voltage between the air at the top of your head and the ground your standing on.

I am not trying to be a smart $%# I just read too many posts on here and feel many times members will write something totally correct minus "splitting hairs" and someone will bring up the "technically correct". I think many of us truly understand electrical theory and we spend so much time writing what we most all of us know. I am sorry, I have thought this for a while and just put it out now.

Nothing personal I love reading your post along with all the other regulars/ moderators. I just find myself saying "here we go again" on too many threads.

WOW maybe I am taking this too far. Sorry to deviate from the OP.

 

[M. D.]

Yeah no blood no harm,.. I just don't want people to think that because it is common it is somehow safe ..it is not ,..people and livestock get hurt by it (stray current ) all too often .

 

[mikeames]

Yea, I agree, Fair enough.

 

[M. D.]

I almost hate to bring it up but I guess I want to ,. EMF,.. a very small amount current on the water pipe can produce a large amount of it ,. folks are and have been investigating EMF and childhood leukemia I know some will say it is nothing to worry about and perhaps ,and I hope ,.you are right .. however It is something to think about...

http://ecmweb.com/mag/electric_emf_childhood_leukemia/

 

[dereckbc]

LMAO I can tell you are from warm climates. Here in MN we are located in 3 climate zones 2,3 & 4..

Hey a redneck can add 2 + 3 + 4 = 9. We have something in common. If you add up all your climate zones it equals my climate zone of “9”.

Here, the frost line in winter is four feet. Buried water pipes are kept just below that.

Frost line? What the heck is that? Oh I know it is what you get when you fill up a frozen mug with beer and the foam freezes around the rim, right?


OK enough jokes :grin: I thought it had to do with the cold weather. But like I said it is foreign to a tucken Fexas redneck.

 

[dereckbc]

Yeah no blood no harm,.. I just don't want people to think that because it is common it is somehow safe ..it is not ,..people and livestock get hurt by it (stray current ) all too often .

I agree, but what constitutes a problem? Where is it defined? There is no NEC requirement. In my industry we have standard which basically is X% of the Service Grounded Conductor shall be investigated. Sorry I will not tell you what that percentage is in this thread. But i think you get the idea :-?

 

[cschmid]

I really do love this..

Al I notice your passion for the English language and applaud your elegant use of it..with your knowledge and passion I would think you would actually be beneficial member of the state board..

dereckbc no disrespect for your location or knowledge level..you must come ice fishing sometime..that is were we drill holes in frozen water and start fires on it..oh yea we catch fish as well..

MD ah you bring up a good topic and that is what the OP was actually reading is the amperage that is being introduced into the earth..now multiply that by hundreds of thousands of water main connection just in one city and how much have we introduced into the earth..I do believe AL was on the right track about having a way to record and track these readings would be beneficial to research..I love logistics..

 

[dereckbc]

I really do love this..


dereckbc no disrespect for your location or knowledge level..you must come ice fishing sometime..that is were we drill holes in frozen water and start fires on it..oh yea we catch fish as well..

Been ther done that in Brainard MN. Made back in 1992 or 93 Nov1 after a record snow storm. Made a newb mistake and set my six pack on top of the snow rather than in the snow. Had to drink my beer with a fork and spoon. I really hated the snot freezing in my nose