amps kill!

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Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
I imagine many of us working with electricity have had the odd shock - and maybe even the odd electric shock.:wink:

A couple of incidents stick in my mind.
The first was when I was probably about 14. I grew up on a farm and sometimes we would put up a bit temporary electric fencing if we needed to isolate a few cattle. Electric fences produce high voltages in much the same way as car engine ignition systems. It's unpleasant but non-leathal. Well, I suppose it is a bit of a macho thing, but we used to see who could hold on to the fence for longest. So, I was holding on to it with one hand, and standing it wet grass. Then my dog came and sniffed my other hand as dogs do. I was wearing rubber boots - he wasn't. I, and the poor dog, got an almighty belt. Understandably, he was a bit nervous for a few days after that......

The other incident was far more serious. An old friend of mine went to change a fuse on a DC fed variable speed drive. The fuse was of the bolted in type. The drive also had an auxiliary AC feed. Unfortunately, he isolated only the AC supply. He had partly loosened the fuse when his wrench shorted between the fuse and ground. I wasn't there but I'm told that the wrench evaporated. He suffered serious burns to his face, chest, and arms. And he was off work for several months and had to have a number of skin grafts.

He did return to work, but he was a shadow of his former self. He had turned from being a man in robust good health with a wicked sense of humour to being like a frail old man.
 

rattus

Senior Member
Simply put:

Simply put:

Shaun B said:
it is said that amps is what kill when a person is electrocuted. So in higher voltages such as 277v and 480v with amps usually being lower when powering equipment than if it was 120v, why is the higher voltage more dangerous? Is the voltage the dangerous part or is it the amps?

It is not the load current; it is the current through one's bod. Higher voltage means more bod current which means more risk of death and more risk of burns and more risk of falling into something hard or sharp
 

steelersman

Senior Member
Location
Lake Ridge, VA
LarryFine said:
No, I don't mean that, and here's why:

Ohm's Law states that one volt will push one amp through one ohm. The formula can be stated three ways, depending on the unknown factor:

E = I x R to find voltage
I = E / R to find current
R = E / I to find resistance

In our case, we will know the resistance and the voltage. The unknown will be the current, so we use I = E / R.

Let's start with 120v and 60 ohms: I = E / R = 120 / 60 = 2 amps.

Now, double the voltage: I = E / R = 240 / 60 = 4 amps.

Note that, because P = E x I, notice that as the voltage doubles, and the resultant current doubles, the power quadruples: 120 x 2 = 240w. 240 x 4 = 960w.

Your error points out exactly what I was explaining. In order to conserve a given power level, the equipment has to be designed for the available voltage, so we wouldn't have a 'given resistance' for equipment meant for a different supply voltage.

To keep the same power level when doubling the supply voltage, the load must have four times the resistance, so again, we can't call it 'a given resistance'.

P = E x I = 120 x 2 = 240w. I = P / E = 240 / 240 = 1a.

Now we have a halving of the current when we doubled the voltage, but that's because we intentionally altered the resistance of the load to suit the new supply voltage:

R = E / I = 120 / 2 = 60 ohms. R = E / I = 240 / 1 = 240 ohms.

Twice the voltage; half the current; same power; four times the resistance.
Larry, I'm glad you corrected me. I never realized or I guess never thought about (maybe in school quite a few years ago but since forgot) the fact that for the same resistance if you increase the voltage then you increase the amps. But now I'm trying to understand how for example power lines they use higher voltage and smaller size wire because there are fewer amps with the increased voltage. I guess for a given load, the higher voltage you supply it with , then the fewer amps it will draw right? But for a given load the resistance is also the same so I'm having trouble understanding this. I understand the math (equation ) for ohm's law E=IR, and flipping it around to solve for the other values (algebra) ie. I=E/R, and R=I/E, but I guess maybe I'm confusing the meaning of the term load. I take it to mean power, but perhaps I'm wrong, maybe it is resistance?
 

celtic

Senior Member
Location
NJ
LarryFine said:
Randy, you need to come to the right coast and hear my home-theater system. 7.1 channels, 2200w continuous.

I can hear his system all the way up in Northern NJ:
97%20Big%20Sound%20System.jpg
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
steelersman said:
I guess for a given load, the higher voltage you supply it with , then the fewer amps it will draw right?
Right, when you say load and you mean power. Power, in watts or VA, translates into work done.

But for a given load the resistance is also the same . . .
This needs explanation, please.

. . . but I guess maybe I'm confusing the meaning of the term load. I take it to mean power, but perhaps I'm wrong, maybe it is resistance?
Well, loads have resistance, and consume power.


Again, you have to remember which parameters are the variables and which are the constants.
 

ATSman

ATSman
Location
San Francisco Bay Area
Occupation
Electrical Engineer/ Electrical Testing & Controls

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
stickboy1375 said:
Why do people think louder is better?
It's not about louder; it's about playing realistically loud, while preserving fidelity and dymanics.

In other words, it's all about making the room and equipment disappear, taking you to the scene.

Don't take my work for it; come experience it for yourself. Any MH member has a standing invite.
 

celtic

Senior Member
Location
NJ
LarryFine said:
Don't take my work for it; come experience it for yourself. Any MH member has a standing invite.

What time is dinner and what's on the menu :grin:


(Seriously, this is quite a gracious offer from Larry)
 

quogueelectric

Senior Member
Location
new york
zog said:
So am I, on nearly every arc flash study I have done the LV systems have much higher Ei's than the MV or HV systems.
This applies to you too. What would be the sence of requiring gfci protection on 480v mains set at 200 amps ? Have you seen the UL Maximum I(sqr)t let through limits for 50,000A short circuit tests??Device amp rating 600v Class J=2,500,000 A* Class Rk1=3,000,000 A* Class RK5=10,000,000 current limiting molded case Circuit Breaker =20,750,000 A* Molded case Circuit breaker = NO LIMIT Reference to UL 248 Fuse standards Versus UL 489 Molded case circuit breaker standards. I will take my chances with a class J fuse if you dont mind. All that prefer breakers line up on the left.
__________________
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
celtic said:
What time is dinner and what's on the menu :grin:
(Seriously, this is quite a gracious offer from Larry)
Anything you like, within reason, and it is a serious offer. :)
 

jnsane84

Senior Member
LarryFine said:
It's not about louder; it's about playing realistically loud, while preserving fidelity and dymanics.

In other words, it's all about making the room and equipment disappear, taking you to the scene.

Don't take my work for it; come experience it for yourself. Any MH member has a standing invite.


Hey thats awesome Larry. I live not too far away. Ima have to come your way one weekend and check it out.:D
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
jnsane84 said:
Hey thats awesome Larry. I live not too far away. Ima have to come your way one weekend and check it out.:D
You're certainly welcome. My sister lives near Mt. Trashmore, by the way.

For those who are wondering, Mt. Trashmore is a park built over a landfill.
 
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