another AFCI nuisance trip question

[al hildenbrand]

Even the GF one you're after.

UL has an 'afci training course'>>> https://lms.ulknowledgeservices.com/catalog/display.resource.aspx?resourceid=405152

White papers>>>https://www.esfi.org/resource/arc-fault-circuit-interrupters-afcis-prevent-electrical-fires-543

Identifying Combination Arc Fault Circuit Breakers By Manufacturer Type >>https://www.afcisafety.org/breaker-type/

I find it curious that all these sites "helpful" instruction ignores the AFCI that does not have a ground fault sensing component and that does not require the branch circuit load neutral to only be connected to the AFCI load neutral terminal.

Did you notice that "blind spot" RJ?

 

[peter d]

Ahh, Peter D, you are such a charming little AFCI scofflaw.

I'm quite happy not being blindered by the limited view in your "real world".

Is this supposed to be an insult? If so, you failed miserably. :happyyes:

 

[bullheimer]

well, in the meantime, i'm happy i am going to be filling up a GE panel on my next job. as for literature. i agree that it MAY not mean anything. i have two shocks. a stock one, and one that Monroe says are the exact same dimension. that is to say, the cut sheet on the new shock says it is the exact same size, hole centers, bolt size, as the older shock. the listed dimensions on the cut sheet for this shock, with the correct p/n stamped on the shock, are exactly the older ones measurements...clearly, something is amiss as the new shock is half the size as the old one. So yes, they are usually right, but not always. we all probably get this. thanks for all the nice links for more info. i learned a lot, but not quite 14 pages worth.

 

[romex jockey]

Did you notice that "blind spot" RJ?

There's always manufacturers reps to ask directly Al

~RJ~

 

[ptonsparky]

With/without GF, IDK. What I do know is that we have been forced to look for and find issues that would have never been found before AFCI. The blinky lights appear to have aided in those searches.

Did the internal switch of a coffee pot tripping the AFCI pose a real problem?
Did finding an energized metallic receptacle box save a life? It had been that way since install.

IDK.

 

[romex jockey]

Methinks you'll find the manufacturers statistical analysis rather questionable Tom

They are based on fire forensics that are not universal, if practiced at all

We do have a resident mod that has posted a paper on this here

~RJ~

 

[kwired]

Methinks you'll find the manufacturers statistical analysis rather questionable Tom

They are based on fire forensics that are not universal, if practiced at all

We do have a resident mod that has posted a paper on this here

~RJ~

That is a problem, they can try to impress people with studies, but then go and select test samples that are going to skew results in their favor.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Did you notice that "blind spot" RJ?

There's always manufacturers reps to ask directly Al

~RJ~

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

. . . you need realize the entire industry revolves around propaganda .

You caution to not believe the published NEC 110.3 Manufacturer's Installation Instruction Leaflet because of "propaganda", but you say there is "always" the manufacturer's reps, the hired manufacturer's sales help ? ? ?

OK. Seriously now. Setting comedy aside:

We are all human, and we have complex and varied basis for action. Absolutely. This is the world of people I live in. In this imperfect human world, I choose to work with the published and printed NEC 110.3 Manufacturer's Installation Instructions, first, and then, if discrepancies arise, or I need help understanding their language, then I'll consult the Manufacturer Technical Support. I suspect most of us get this.

Personally, I continue to press for transparency in the information, rather than be limited by the manufacturer's stone wall.

So. To summarize my part in this thread, for a second time: The MH Forum rumored second combination-type AFCI breaker without a ground fault sensing component does not exist. Per the latest manufacturer's installation instructions, the Eaton BR line of combination-type AFCI breakers has a ground fault sensing component.

Returning to Bullheimer's Opening Post, did you get the tripping AFCI situation to settle down and behave?

 

[bullheimer]

well ok, back to my OP, it never was a breaker issue! to begine with! just a recept issue... i guess i could have tried a breaker but just assumed it would trip if the recept did so i didn't even want to go there, given the cost of a breaker vs outlets, it wouldn't have been more than $20 to just throw recepts at it.

i replaced the tripping outlet (in first location of the circuit) with a new afci outlet, it protects only one other outlet on the circuit, which is behind the owners bed so i didn't want to move it. the next outlet down the line also afci and only protects one other outlet, in a closet on the opposite side of the wall. the rest of the circuit, the closets light and switch, which continues on to the laundry room, then out to the garage lights that were just installed with commercial instant start ballasts and lamped with l.e.d. 4 footers that can be used with or without removing the ballasts (they were not removed).... are NOT protected by the last afci recept. Eaton afci recepts were used in all cases. I havent seen anything about whether or not afci recepts have any unknown gfi circuits, but i will assume not, and probably get another 14 pages on afci recepts, but hey lets set a record. i will read until the thread dies!

and for the record, i swapped these afci recepts in about two weeks ago, and i have NOT heard back any news about them tripping, which i know i would have for sure because this owner is focused on this issue, so again, i am going to assume here, that the problem has been solved. my personal belief, is that the tripping was being caused somehow, i don't know how, but somehow by the l.e.d. lamps/ballasts combo or just the lamps somehow, but for all i know there could be some kind of valid afci issue in the houses wiring in the laundry (fart fan) or garage switch leg. Hope not, but i have fulfilled the n.e.c.'s requirement of protecting all RnR'd outlets, (except for the closet light in the bedroom), so I am walking away from this job....i HOPE!

 

[al hildenbrand]

. . . i have fulfilled the n.e.c.'s requirement of protecting all RnR'd outlets, (except for the closet light in the bedroom), so I am walking away from this job....i HOPE!

Thanks. Glad it worked out.

:thumbsup:

 

[peter d]

So. To summarize my part in this thread, for a second time: The MH Forum rumored second combination-type AFCI breaker without a ground fault sensing component does not exist. Per the latest manufacturer's installation instructions, the Eaton BR line of combination-type AFCI breakers has a ground fault sensing component.

Yep, that's all we need. Get out the chisel and set that in stone. :roll::happyno:

 

[kwired]

We are all human, and we have complex and varied basis for action. Absolutely. This is the world of people I live in. In this imperfect human world, I choose to work with the published and printed NEC 110.3 Manufacturer's Installation Instructions, first, and then, if discrepancies arise, or I need help understanding their language, then I'll consult the Manufacturer Technical Support. I suspect most of us get this.

Personally, I continue to press for transparency in the information, rather than be limited by the manufacturer's stone wall.

I used to trust documentation that came with products was reasonably accurate and actually meant what it said.

As time goes by these documents seem to get less trustworthy, and some don't make much sense at all. Then you get installation or assembly instructions that are pictures only and hard to decipher even if they are accurate.

 

[ELA]

Remember getting a schematic?

Remember getting a schematic?

I can remember getting schematics with a product
Long gone of course but a nice memory.

 

[romex jockey]

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


You caution to not believe the published NEC 110.3 Manufacturer's Installation Instruction Leaflet because of "propaganda", but you say there is "always" the manufacturer's reps, the hired manufacturer's sales help ? ? ?

OK. Seriously now. Setting comedy aside:

We are all human, and we have complex and varied basis for action. Absolutely. This is the world of people I live in. In this imperfect human world, I choose to work with the published and printed NEC 110.3 Manufacturer's Installation Instructions, first, and then, if discrepancies arise, or I need help understanding their language, then I'll consult the Manufacturer Technical Support. I suspect most of us get this.

Personally, I continue to press for transparency in the information, rather than be limited by the manufacturer's stone wall.

Then you've regulated yourself to the anecdotals you'll find among those inquistive sorts here, as well as whatever other on line forums post them Al

welcome aboard!

~RJ~

 

[al hildenbrand]

What leaflet? Have a link?

I don't have your documents and don't intent to look for them. Go find them yourself if you want them

Why do you keep asking for it then? I don't really care what is in it and don't read every link that gets posted here.

I used to trust documentation that came with products was reasonably accurate and actually meant what it said.
As time goes by these documents seem to get less trustworthy, and some don't make much sense at all. Then you get installation or assembly instructions that are pictures only and hard to decipher even if they are accurate.

Kwired, what do you think about the content of the Eaton Installation Instruction Leaflet I have been asking you to consider?

Originally Posted by al hildenbrandThe CH line of Cutler Hammer AFCIs most definitely has ground fault sensing.

This is straight from the Instruction Leaflet for the 3/4" CH, the 1" BR, the 1" QB and the 1" CL CAFCIs. The instruction leaflet is available at this page. Expand the "Instructions" link under the "Documentation" tab. -- Edit To Add: The "Effective June 2016" PDF is the third selection.

 

[kwired]

Kwired, what do you think about the content of the Eaton Installation Instruction Leaflet I have been asking you to consider?

Looks like installation instructions just like it is titled. It is not a specifications guide of any sort, I don't expect it to tell me if there is a GFP component in the device. It doesn't really give any specifications of any kind for that matter, including general overcurrent protection function that the device should have.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Looks like installation instructions just like it is titled. It is not a specifications guide of any sort, I don't expect it to tell me if there is a GFP component in the device. It doesn't really give any specifications of any kind for that matter, including general overcurrent protection function that the device should have.

The content of the Eaton Installation Instruction Leaflet says: "General Troubleshooting Guidelines -- Check for grounding problems", and etc.

If the Eaton line of AFCIs didn't react to ground faults, this Eaton Installation Instruction Leaflet would not tell you to troubleshoot it.

 

[peter d]

The content of the Eaton Installation Instruction Leaflet says: "General Troubleshooting Guidelines -- Check for grounding problems", and etc.

If the Eaton line of AFCIs didn't react to ground faults, this Eaton Installation Instruction Leaflet would not tell you to troubleshoot it.

Have you tested a BR device yet to prove this is true?

 

[al hildenbrand]

Have you tested a BR device yet to prove this is true?

Ibid.

 

[peter d]

Ibid.

Yes? No? Oh, that's right, you believe everything manufacturers tell you.