Another jacuzzi tub bonding question???

[jango]

Given: a jacuzzi tub with the motor and heater, which both have bonding lugs. There is nothing else to bond to other than the cold and hot copper water pipes feeding the tub. Is this what in effect should be done? Thanks for your input.

 

[George Stolz]

680.74 requires the motor be bonded to piping in contact with the circulating water. The supply pipes are not in contact with the circulating water, so they are not required to be bonded.

The circulating pipes are generally plastic, so no bonding is required.

 

[mark henderson]

In some of the manufactures specs it states that they must be grounded. It says to the plumbing if copper or another source.
I was actually reading some this morning for the tubs with the heaters. The tubs I looked at needed 2 to 3 20amp circuits.

Mark

edit: to add the specs said grounded NOT bonded

 

[cowboyjwc]

I would agree with george even though we do make them take a bond wire back to the cold water pipe.

Now my reason for that is because it is supplied with a bonding lug(s), so they must have wanted it bonded. My tube for instance did not come with one, so......

 

[infinity]

I would agree with george even though we do make them take a bond wire back to the cold water pipe.

Now my reason for that is because it is supplied with a bonding lug(s), so they must have wanted it bonded. My tube for instance did not come with one, so......

Why would you require something that isn't required by the NEC? The inclusion of a bonding lug doesn't mean that you get to add verbiage to the NEC. As George properly stated the requirement is for bonding to the metal piping of the water circulation system. If the water circulation piping is plastic how can you require anything further?

 

[George Stolz]

John, good night and good luck.

 

[jango]

The motor instructions do say "to bond to all metal conduits and metal piping within 5' of the inside walls of the tub". I'm assuming that the hot and cold water pipes apply here to be bonded with the motor and heater with the #8 solid copper based on these specifications???

 

[George Stolz]

Could you show us a copy of the instructions? Do you have a digital camera or a scanner handy?

I'd be curious to see it for myself.

 

[M. D.]

Here is the action taken

________________________________________________________________
17-183 Log #732 NEC-P17 Final Action: Accept in Principle
( 680.74 )
________________________________________________________________
Submitter: Gary Siggins, Underwriters Laboratories Inc.
Comment on Proposal No: 17-152
Recommendation: The Panel Statement regarding the rejection of proposal
17-152 indicated they believed a double insulated whirlpool bath pump provided
an increased level of safety. Although this is the case for above ground
storable and non-storable swimming pool pumps, I believe it is not the case
with whirlpool baths utilizing double insulated pumps. The pump designs and
their installations are different.
Whirlpool bath pumps are not accessible by the bathtub occupants and are
required by UL 1795 to have their live parts above the mounting service in the
event of a leak. They are also required to have their internal metal parts that
might become energized in a failure (the motor shaft in particular) isolated
from the water. An internal failure of the motor would not produce the same
hazards as an outdoor storable pool unit that is accessible and may have wet
surfaces. The grounding of internal dead metal parts, therefore, is not needed.
Due to the requirements on the double insulated bathtub pumps and their
mounting in UL 1795, the text from 680.74, ?and providing a means for
grounding internal nonaccessible, non-current carrying metal parts? should,
therefore, be deleted.
Substantiation: Present text requires substantial modification of the pump
motor without an overall increase in the safety of the complete whirlpool bath.
Panel Meeting Action: Accept in Principle
Revise 680.74 to read as follows:
680.74 Bonding. All metal piping systems and all grounded metal parts in contact
with the circulating water shall be bonded together using a copper bonding
jumper, insulated, covered, or bare, not smaller than 8 AWG solid.
Panel Statement: The need for bonding in a bathroom differs from the need
for bonding in a pool area. Electrical equipment of a hydromassage bathtub is
not accessible to users of the tub. Only parts that can cause a voltage gradient
in the bathtub need to be bonded. Section 680.74 has been concisely reworded
to require the bonding of only the parts that present a risk of creating voltage
gradients in the hydromassage bathtub. The panel?s action on 17-183 supersedes
the panel?s action on ROP 17-153.
Number Eligible to Vote: 10
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 10

Now the question is does 110.3(B) apply. I have found installation instructions that call for such bonding as well. Some say that these instructions are not part of the listing and labeling , I disagree.

 

[M. D.]

Could you show us a copy of the instructions? Do you have a digital camera or a scanner handy?

I'd be curious to see it for myself.

George, you can find links to three different examples in this thread ,.. pages 1,3,5, http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=85816

 

[raider1]

680.74 requires the motor be bonded to piping in contact with the circulating water. The supply pipes are not in contact with the circulating water, so they are not required to be bonded.

Actually George,

680.74 requires "All metal piping systems and all grounded metal parts in contact with the circulating water shall be bonded together....".

So, as I read this section the supply pipes don't have to be in contact with the circulating water, if they are metal and we have grounded metal parts that are in contact with the circulating water then those items must be bonded together.

Again, this is dealing with 680.74 not any manufactures installation instructions.

Chris

 

[George Stolz]

http://www.jacuzzi.com/pdf/K339.PDF

The one on page 1 has apparently been pulled, I'll check the others next...

 

[M. D.]

http://www.jacuzzi.com/pdf/K339.PDF

The one on page 1 has apparently been pulled, I'll check the others next...

Sorry to hear it , try this one ;http://jacuzzi.com/pdf/K339000.PDF?SELINSTMANS=K339000.PDF&goinst.x=18&goinst.y=13

if not here is the wording;

With a #8 solid copper wire, bond the heater to the house electrical panel or approved local bond. A bonding lug is
provided on the heater. With another #8 solid copper wire, bond the pump/motor to the house electrical panel or
approved local bond. A bonding lug is provided on the pump/motor.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

680.74 requires "All metal piping systems and all grounded metal parts in contact with the circulating water shall be bonded together....".

So, as I read this section the supply pipes don't have to be in contact with the circulating water, if they are metal and we have grounded metal parts that are in contact with the circulating water then those items must be bonded together.
Chris

I don't quite see it that way. To me it says that if the metal piping system and any metal parts are in contact with the circulating water then it shall be bonded.

Now my reason for that is because it is supplied with a bonding lug(s), so they must have wanted it bonded. My tub for instance did not come with one, so......

Isn't it possible that the motors may be used for different application in which the bonding is necessary. The manufacturer puts together the parts made by other companies. Those motors may be used for outdoor spas or some other function where the bonding is necessary.

 

[raider1]

So Dennis,

Are you saying that the "metal piping system" must be in contact with the circulating water?

Chris

 

[jango]

My question is, are there any potential negative effects of having a #8 solid copper wire to bond the pump motor bond lug to the heater bond lug and to the hot and cold copper water pipes supplying water to the jacuzzi tub? Or is this just extra over all protection that is not really necessary?

 

[George Stolz]

Chris, did you read the ROC that M.D. posted?

Panel Statement: The need for bonding in a bathroom differs from the need for bonding in a pool area. Electrical equipment of a hydromassage bathtub is not accessible to users of the tub. Only parts that can cause a voltage gradient in the bathtub need to be bonded. Section 680.74 has been concisely reworded to require the bonding of only the parts that present a risk of creating voltage gradients in the hydromassage bathtub.

The proposal stated that the electrical components of the pump of the tub are isolated from the user of the tub, so there was no point in bonding them to anything.

All metal piping systems and all grounded metal parts in contact with the circulating water shall be bonded together...

The metal piping systems (object #1) and grounded metal parts (object #2) in contact with the circulating water (object #3) are the items we have.

When #1 and #2 are in contact with #3, then #1 and #2 shall be bonded together. Agree or disagree?

 

[George Stolz]

Jango, there are no negative effects of bonding it to speak of, it's simply unnecessary, IMO.

 

[George Stolz]

So, looking at this diagram from the instructions M.D. linked to above...

View attachment 482

Each receptacle is required by the manufacturer to be a three-pin grounding style receptacle. What purpose would a #8 conductor back to the electrical panel be?

This is obviously written by someone unfamiliar with equipotential bonding requirements. Should an AHJ insist on the conductor, despite this?

 

[cowboyjwc]

I do agree that if the installation instructions say that they are to be bonded, then they should be bonded.

And yes Dennis they motors could be used for different things.

But does the water run through the heater so that it can be heated by electric coils and is that heater not part of the circulating system?

680.74 doesn't say that all the parts have to be there,

it says. All metal piping systems (not there per original post), metal parts of electrical equipment, and pump motors associated with the hydromassage tub shall be bonded together. Doesn't say anything about the circulating system. So we have an inline heater (metal?) and a pump motor, I see that they should be bonded togeter. Do you need to go to the cold water by what this says? Maybe not, but doesn't do you much good not to bond it to something.

Now in the case of my tub it has the double insulated motor that doesn't require bonding. Now I'm in the 2002.

In the 2005.....and all grounded metal parts in contact with the circulating water......