Any violation here?

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nhfire77

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Big box store shopping this week, saw this. Found it interesting. Thats about 20-22' AFF. Having to drag out the 28' ladder to troubleshoot or do a battery change must be a PITA.

What do you think?
 
We have a Meijer store here and I also noticed 3 power supplies (NAC and CCTV) all at ceiling height - must be some sort of retail thingy.

One I could get to if I stood on the liquor racks :grin:

Jim
 
nhfire77 said:
Big box store shopping this week, saw this. Found it interesting. Thats about 20-22' AFF. Having to drag out the 28' ladder to troubleshoot or do a battery change must be a PITA.

What do you think?
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I see no code violation but I think it was a poor idea.
 
Wisecracks removed

Wisecracks removed

Lets at least try to answer the question before starting with the funny business.
 
OK Bob getting back on track:

The Installation manual states:

Carefully unpack the system and check for shipping damage. Select a location for the cabinet that
is in a clean, dry, vibration-free area where extreme temperatures are not encountered. The area
should be readily accessible with sufficient room to easily install and maintain the power supply.
Locate the top of the cabinet approximately five feet above the floor with the hinge mounting on
the left. Determine the number of conductors required for the devices to be installed and determine
the appropriate knockouts. All wiring must be in accordance with the National and/or Local codes
for fire alarm systems and power supplies.



So that's a problem. Readily accessible is open to interpretation. Approx 5' is not 20'.
 
nhfire77 said:
The Installation manual states:

Carefully unpack the system and check for shipping damage. Select a location for the cabinet that
is in a clean, dry, vibration-free area where extreme temperatures are not encountered. The area
should be readily accessible with sufficient room to easily install and maintain the power supply.
Locate the top of the cabinet approximately five feet above the floor with the hinge mounting on
the left. Determine the number of conductors required for the devices to be installed and determine
the appropriate knockouts. All wiring must be in accordance with the National and/or Local codes
for fire alarm systems and power supplies.
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Unless that instruction is included with the units listing (and I bet it is not) it is just a suggestion.
 
iwire said:
Unless that instruction is included with the units listing (and I bet it is not) it is just a suggestion.
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What?? How can an explicit manufacturer's instruction be just a "suggestion". Why even write or include one at all? :-?

Actual UL Listings typically do not include reference to manufacturer's instructions, so I don't see how that is even a factor. If the manufacturer submits installation instructions with the product to be listed, UL will follow said instructions to the letter. If the device passes the required tests, it is listed. I am willing to bet that all documentation that normally ships with the product, is submitted with the product for listing evaluation.

While it might not be a direct NEC violation, it certainly may be a fire safety violation or installation liability - especially if the installation prevents requied maintenance and checks to the device. IMHO, the inspector or fire chief should have flagged this as a blatant violation.
 
LJSMITH1 said:
While it might not be a direct NEC violation, it certainly may be a fire safety violation or installation liability - especially if the installation prevents requied maintenance and checks to the device. IMHO, the inspector or fire chief should have flagged this as a blatant violation.
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That is a conflicting statement.

The inspector needs a code to cite beyond 'it's tough to work on'
 
iwire said:
Read 110.3(B)
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Again, there are no 'instructions' per say in the UL listings. Here is the UL Listing File # for the FireLite FCPS-24FS8

UOXX.S2424 & UTRZ.S1287

These listings merely include all model #'s of FireLite equipment tested to UL1481 and UL864.

However, from links relayed by UL's online certifications directory relating to the FireLite devices:

http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/template/LISEXT/1FRAME/showpage.html?name=AAFP.GuideInfo&ccnshorttitle=Fire+Protection+Equipment&objid=1075045278&cfgid=1073741824&version=versionless&parent_id=1075045277&sequence=1

http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/template/LISEXT/1FRAME/showpage.html?name=SYKJ.GuideInfo&ccnshorttitle=Signal+and+Fire+Alarm+Equipment+and+Services&objid=1074302031&cfgid=1073741824&version=versionless&parent_id=1073993455&sequence=1

SYKJ.GuideInfo
Signal and Fire Alarm Equipment and Services

Users of this equipment should consult Authorities Having Jurisdiction (AHJ) concerning the particular types to be used, number and location of appliances, character and installation of wiring, methods to be followed in the receipt and disposition of signals, keeping of records, rendering of reports, and all other details having a bearing on adequate installation, maintenance and use of the system to be employed
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And also:

AAFP.GuideInfo
Fire Protection Equipment

This equipment is intended for use only as described in the general Guide Information for each product category and individual Listings. This equipment has been investigated for use as described in the instructions and markings provided with the equipment. The use of the equipment in conditions other than described in the instructions, markings and the general Guide Information for the applicable product category has not been investigated by UL.

AND..Most importantly...

INSTRUCTIONS AND PRODUCT MARKINGS
These products are intended to be installed in accordance with the installation instructions provided with the product. It is critical that the cautionary statements and installation and operating instructions on the product and in accompanying literature be followed.
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IWire..I don't make this stuff up. I think you need to delve a bit more into the actual UL Listings to have the full understanding of what is referenced. The UL WhiteBook or NEC is no substitution for that.

To me, this is all common sense. I should follow the manufacturer's installation instructions (if included) or else I may get hurt or create a major liability. I don't assume I can make it up as I go along...:roll:

The inspector(s) missed this one and it should be corrected ASAP. IMHO

BTW...110.3(B) points you in the direction...Labeling can also mean an installation booklet included with the device.
 
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Good Call LJSMITH1.

Fixing this would be easier by installing another brand. No mounting height requirements for Silent Knight and since the AHJ thought this one to be OK, it would meet the "should be accessible for testing and service" requirement for SK.
 
LJSMITH1 said:
Again, there are no 'instructions' per say in the UL listings.
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Then there are no instructions the NEC requires we follow.

There was a proposals to change 110.3(B) so that it includes all instructions that the manufacturer includes.


1-53 Log #2108 NEC-P01​
​
​
​
Final Action: Reject
(110.3(B))​

_____________________________________________________________​
Submitter:​
​
​
​
​
Herbert Moulton, Masters Technology Inc.​

Recommendation:​
​
​
​
​
Revise text as follows:
(B) Installation and Use. Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and
used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.
Revised Text: Equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any
instructions included in the listing and labeling.​

Substantiation:​
​
​
​
​
The deleted text is unnecessary as the reference to listed and
labeled is redundant.​

Panel Meeting Action: Reject
Panel Statement:​
​
​
​
​
The existing language is intentional, designed to illuminate
the difference between Sections 11 0.3(A) and 11 0.3(B). Section 11 0.3(A)
contains criteria for authorities having jurisdiction to examine equipment.
Listed equipment, covered by 11 0.3(B), is presumptively in satisfaction of
11 0.3(A)(1) through (8) by virtue of its conformity to product safety standards.​

Number Eligible to Vote: 12​
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 12
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IWire..I don't make this stuff up.
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And neither do I, I respectfully suggest you try to see things from the outside of your office and what we in the field are up against.

Read the instructions that come with any appliance, many of the words in those instrutions have nothing to do with electrical safety.

For example, I install solar panels, the instructions direct that the glass should be cleaned on a regular basis

Am I violating 110.3(B) by not doing so? Is the customer?

Take a look at the instructions that come with a dishwasher, very likely they will say to use specific brand of soap.

It's in the instructions it must be code right?

I think you need to delve a bit more into the actual UL Listings to have the full understanding of what is referenced. The UL WhiteBook or NEC is no substitution for that.
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I think that I need to follow the NEC, (or MEC in my case) that is all I am bound to unless other standards are referenced which brings us back to 110.3(B)

To me, this is all common sense. I should follow the manufacturer's installation instructions (if included) or else I may get hurt or create a major liability. I don't assume I can make it up as I go along...:roll:
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So put that to the picture of the snac panel up high?

There is very little to service in that box, an exhaust fan has more reason for easy access but they are regularly mounted in hard to access locations.

A slippery slope to head down, I will stick with the NEC.

The inspector(s) missed this one and it should be corrected ASAP. IMHO
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What code section will be placed on that correction notice?

Don't misunderstand me, I think that is a poor location. I work on this stuff all the time, I don't just talk about it. Many times I show up for a service call and I have to reschedule with a lift to access whatever it is. But the NEC is not a design manual, good design comes from good designers not inspectors asking for more then the NEC requires.
 
Here is a layout I did using very similar SNAC panels, had I mounted them all at 5' as the instructions may have said it would be ridiculously spread out.

Mixed179.jpg


I do have an issue with the carts but that was beyond my control.

LowesWarehamFA.jpg
 
There is nothing in NFPA 72, (which governs fire alarm installations) that prohibit locating a remote booster in that ridiculous location. The result of which simply increases the cost to maintain and service once out of warranty.

Voltage drop being an issue, remote boosters need to be located strategically to get the most out of each circuit. The store mgr must have needed the real estate at 5' AFF at that post location, and dictated to the designer/installer to place up that high out of the way. I would have just reduced the number of devices on the circuits (if need be) and placed the booster in a more accessible location. That may have required an additional booster, but in the long run, it results in a better design.
 
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