Apprentice argument

[petersonra]

Give each apprentice a pillow and let them fight it out.

 

[LarryFine]

Where's the face slap emoji?

How about something a it more extreme?

 

[xformer]

How about something a it more extreme?

I guess I deserve that for attempting code quotes before morning coffee.

 

[LarryFine]

How about something a it more extreme?

That was supposed to be a "bit" more extreme.

 

[ramsy]

Well there's nothing wrong with using a 100A breaker and a breaker retainer as a main.

Unless the apprentice is drumming up side work, flipping panels without upgrading service wire, or permits.

That apprentice job would be better than panel flippers in my area, who leave old service conductors in place.

Teach that apprentice how to get AFCI's working on remodel plugs, and they will really be dangerous.

 

[petersonra]

Unless the apprentice is drumming up side work, flipping panels without upgrading service wire, or permits.

That apprentice job would be better than panel flippers in my area, who leave old service conductors in place.

Teach that apprentice how to get AFCI's working on remodel plugs, and they will really be dangerous.

what is wrong with leaving old service conductors in place?

 

[ActionDave]

Unless the apprentice is drumming up side work, flipping panels without upgrading service wire, or permits.

That apprentice job would be better than panel flippers in my area, who leave old service conductors in place.

Teach that apprentice how to get AFCI's working on remodel plugs, and they will really be dangerous.

Not a problem I'm concerned with.

 

[Tulsa Electrician]

I know year ago it was done quite often. Not sure if it can be done today with new code.
Line side barrier.
I bet they don't make a kit for back feed on a 100 as service equipment.

 

[Tulsa Electrician]

230.62 (c)
I do believe that's it for 2020 NEC.
We did it when we upgraded an old panel. The AHJ required 3 spaces when done.
Last one I did was in the 90's

I would bet now main lug load centers are not service entrance rated.
I would have to ask mfg supplier.

 

[Tulsa Electrician]

Well looked around.
You want to take donuts tommorow.
They have a kit for a back fed breaker. Now does the main lug load center have the sticker or does it come with the kit.

Interesting

 

[jimport]

I know year ago it was done quite often. Not sure if it can be done today with new code.
Line side barrier.
I bet they don't make a kit for back feed on a 100 as service equipment.

Might not even need a hold down. Square D QO main bolts in place. Barriers are available off the shelf.

 

[ramsy]

what is wrong with leaving old service conductors in place.

When panel flippers put 200A breakers on existing 100A service conductors the wire can become the fuse, after additional loads, tankless water heater, or Electric car chargers are added.

230.90 requires overload protection not higher than the ampacity of the service conductors.

That includes the old service drop, riser, or lateral, which should be upgraded to match the larger 200A load center.

 

[Buck Parrish]

Well looked around.
You want to take donuts tommorow.
They have a kit for a back fed breaker. Now does the main lug load center have the sticker or does it come with the kit.

Interesting

That was a good find.

 

[goldstar]

They are sold that way. You can buy a main lug panel and a main breaker kit or a breaker tie down. It's done all the time.

I understand that but this was the OP's statement

My apprentice says they used to take 200 amp panels and take the main breaker out and put a 100 amp breaker in it to gain more spaces without having to upgrade the service.

Sorry, I wasn't thinking "out-of-the-box" on this. The way it was worded I thought they were buying 200 MB panels, removing the 200A main CB and installing a 100A main CB. First off, I'm not sure a 100A MB will fit correctly in that space. However, installing a 100A plug-in CB with a hold-down kit will work just fine. Second, why buy a 200A MBP ? Just buy a 40/80 circuit MLP and install the plug-in CB.

 

[kwired]

I think they are not sold that way because you would have individuals out there installing 400 amp mains in a 200 amp rated panel.

I really doubt there is a 400 amp main that will directly fit a 200 amp "load center" without some field engineering going on.

I do know Square D makes QOM2 series main breakers in a 100 amp version if for some reason you wanted a 100 amp main in an otherwise 200-225 amp bus panel. But the QOM1 breakers will not fit in a panel designed for QOM2 breakers.

 

[kwired]

Why not just install the 200 amp panel down stream of the 100 amp service?

I think in his scenario there is just a 100 amp meter and mast and the original 100 amp main breaker was in the panel being replaced. Going back to wording in OP I guess this isn't an upgrade in maximum service capacity though I also think changing out a panel is an upgrade of some sort compared to just adding tandems to gain more spaces. If replacing say an old obsolete panel type might be worthwhile, if putting same type panel/breakers back maybe best off just to supply a subpanel even if right next to the main to gain more spaces.

 

[xformer]

I really doubt there is a 400 amp main that will directly fit a 200 amp "load center" without some field engineering going on.

I do know Square D makes QOM2 series main breakers in a 100 amp version if for some reason you wanted a 100 amp main in an otherwise 200-225 amp bus panel. But the QOM1 breakers will not fit in a panel designed for QOM2 breakers.

I was being slightly facetious.
There are multiple solutions to this issue.

 

[kwired]

I know year ago it was done quite often. Not sure if it can be done today with new code.
Line side barrier.
I bet they don't make a kit for back feed on a 100 as service equipment.

Square D does. I know they have some QO three phase 100 amp main panels with back fed main breaker factory installed, they had to come up with a barrier for it or discontinue using that type for a main.

 

[gadfly56]

I understand that but this was the OP's statement
Sorry, I wasn't thinking "out-of-the-box" on this. The way it was worded I thought they were buying 200 MB panels, removing the 200A main CB and installing a 100A main CB. First off, I'm not sure a 100A MB will fit correctly in that space. However, installing a 100A plug-in CB with a hold-down kit will work just fine. Second, why buy a 200A MBP ? Just buy a 40/80 circuit MLP and install the plug-in CB.

Last I looked around, it was cheaper to buy the 200 amp panel with the breaker than the MLP alone if all you're trying to do is get more slots.

 

[kwired]

Last I looked around, it was cheaper to buy the 200 amp panel with the breaker than the MLP alone if all you're trying to do is get more slots.

Big box stores sometimes that is true.

Big box often don't have many options available for MLO panels anyway, at least not in what is stocked in the store.