Apprentice Exam Requirement

[bphgravity]

Our apprentice program is considering some changes to graduation requirements at the end of the four year program. One of the popular suggestions is requiring the 4th year students to sit for the local journeyman license exam. One suggestion goes as far as making a passing grade mandatory for graduation.

The catalyst is the fact that of the 50 or so apprentices we graduate from the program each year, not even 10% are licensed journeyman within one year. The program has been tracking this data for about 4 years now. I am currently developing a survey for past students to maybe find out why most students choose not to sit for the exam following graduation. Perhaps we will find a trend.

One problem I have implementing this idea is that not all persons that enter our program necessarily are trying to become journeyman electricians. There are a host of reasons someone takes our courses, and by denying them a diploma at the end of the program becasue they simply don't wish to become licensed is probably not a good thing.

Any thoughts? By the way, journeyman licensing is not mandatory in the state of Florida.

 

[peter]

Re: Apprentice Exam Requirement

"By the way, journeyman licensing is not mandatory in the state of Florida." That, in a nutshell, is probably why they don't get licensed. If you don't need it, why get it? Does it cost money to take the test?

Maybe they don't intend to work in your local area. Maybe they just decide to become instructors like you since you are so inspiring and have filled them up with all that knowledge and wisdom.

~Peter

 

[chrsb]

Re: Apprentice Exam Requirement

Here in Michigan the apprentices are required to pass the journeymans exam to graduate. Of course journeyman licensing is required here, as it should be. Apprentices are required to be registered here also, and withen the next few years if you are not registered throughout your apprenticship you will not be able to take the journeymans exam.

 

[charlie b]

Re: Apprentice Exam Requirement

I think the two should be kept separate. One graduates from a school. One is licensed by a state. Those are separate organizations. In the engineering world, you can (and are encouraged to) take the first of two licensing-related tests before you graduate. But taking and passing that first test is not a condition for getting the diploma.

Perhaps you could use some method of giving special recognition for those who do pass the journeyman exam. I do not know, for example, whether you hold a formal graduation ceremony. But if you do, when the diploma is handed to a person who did pass the journeyman exam, you could mention that fact as you state his or her name. If there is no formal ceremony, then put a ?gold star? (i.e., any type of special mark) on the diploma. The point is that the students should know at the beginning of the program that this special recognition will be given to any and all who make the additional effort to pass the journeyman exam.

 

[jeff43222]

Re: Apprentice Exam Requirement

Originally posted by bphgravity:
Any thoughts? By the way, journeyman licensing is not mandatory in the state of Florida.

So does the journeyman license have any value there?

Where I live, journeyman licensing is also not mandatory, but if you aren't at least a licensed journeyman, you can't do electrical work unless you are supervised by someone with a journeyman or master license, and the licensee can supervise a maximum of two unlicensed people at a time. You also can't open up your own shop unless you are licensed as a master electrician or employ one who doesn't work for any other contractor.

As a result, licensed electricians are much more valuable to a contractor than unlicensed people, and they therefore get paid a lot more. There is no shortage of people taking the journeyman license exam, but often it takes more than one try to pass it (pass rate was 58% for the last two years).

Seems kinda useless to have a licensing system if the license isn't really worth having.

 

[bphgravity]

Re: Apprentice Exam Requirement

Unfortunately here in Florida, there is no licensing requirements for journeyman. A contractor can hire someone right off the street with absolutely no experience and put them in a truck doing service calls.

The license is only valuable to those that desire personaly achievement and could result in more income or benefits from employers that place value in the acomplishment.

There have been several attempts in the last few years to make journeyman licensing a state requirement, but it gets shot down pretty quick. Even with some heavy backing from organizations like IEC, NECA, and the IAEI.

 

[charlie]

Re: Apprentice Exam Requirement

Bryan, doesn't the Federal Government contracts require a journeyman/apprentice minimum ratio? I seem to remember that from something.

 

[jeff43222]

Re: Apprentice Exam Requirement

Originally posted by bphgravity:
Unfortunately here in Florida, there is no licensing requirements for journeyman. A contractor can hire someone right off the street with absolutely no experience and put them in a truck doing service calls.

Same is true here, but that person would have to be supervised at all times by a licensed electrician. You mean an unlicensed person can work unsupervised in Florida?

There have been several attempts in the last few years to make journeyman licensing a state requirement, but it gets shot down pretty quick. Even with some heavy backing from organizations like IEC, NECA, and the IAEI.

What's the reasoning behind shooting it down? Is there an "It ain't broke, so why fix it" attitude, or are Florida contractors concerned about having to pay more money to employees?

The contractor's association here is advocating creating a new class of license that could be obtained after only two years of experience doing residential work, allegedly needed because of the "shortage" of licensed journeymen. Except I don't think there's much of a shortage if the local IBEWs have hundreds of licensed journeymen who have no work.

I imagine the situation in Flordia boils down to money.

 

[southernboys]

Re: Apprentice Exam Requirement

bryan a few questions about your apprentice program. are the teachers who teach the course people who are in the field at the time of them teaching the course or are they hs teachers who try to teach an apprentice how to do something from 20 years ago. the reason I ask is I went through the feat program for a year before I moved to pensacola fl the feat program I feel would have fully prepared me to take the jmans test where as going through two years of the joke apprentiship program I do not feel nearly confident enuff to take the jmans tesat without thouroughly studying on my own. yes I did study in orlando but I also learned a lot from field hands rather then hearing about how ngreat of a state louisiana was 20 yrs ago so please take this into consideration

 

[bphgravity]

Re: Apprentice Exam Requirement

I am not exactly sure why Florida is behind the 8-ball on this one. I have heard it has something to do with the state's "right to work" status. I don't know how that plays in but thats the excuse I hear from time to time. There also happens to be a state senator that also happens to own a large electrical contracting operation. You do the math on that one.

The state mandates instructor qualifications, however the ECF does a good job hiring only highly qualified instructors. We have inspectors, contractors, and even a few previous graduates of the program. We are also required to become certified by the local county school board.

 

[southernboys]

Re: Apprentice Exam Requirement

bryan thats what Im talking about makes me wish I lived in your area. these guys you hace teaching know what it means to work in the field every day and can teach a lot more for that reason there is no excuse for your guys not to strive for there jmans. maybe on a rotating basis those who have graduated from your apprentiship course and have there jman can be offered jobs as instructors out of curiosity where are you guys located and whos the senator

 

[jad1097]

Re: Apprentice Exam Requirement

Florida took a step backwards in 1998.

For more than 50 years, Florida had licensing of journeymen electricians. But this was repealed in 1998, and the state prohibited counties and cities from imposing competency or licensing requirements. The requirement for journeyman ratios on jobsites was also repealed.

"So we couldn?t do anything about licensing," Travers recalls. "But we did manage to insert a phrase in the South Florida Building Code requiring that electrical installations be performed in a ?neat and workmanlike manner,? the same language that also appears in the NEC. This was better than nothing, but since there were no specific workmanship requirements spelled out, it basically left inspectors free to shoot from the hip. When the NEIS came along, I saw an opportunity to adopt these standards to explain what was actually meant by installing electrical equipment in a neat and workmanlike manner. I tried to make them work for us, to help solve our problem."

http://www.iaei.org/magazine/01_c/stauffer.htm