Apprentice running jobs?

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wolfman56

Senior Member
I,m a licensed journeyman with over 10 years experience.
The company I just started with put me on a house along with an apprentice. They put the apprentice in charge of running the job. (He happens to be one of the owners nephew's)
I admit to being really insulted and also amazed at this. Has anyone heard of this? Would you quit if you were me?
 
Re: Apprentice running jobs?

This can be a real touchy subject. My concern would be the qualifications of the other guy. Just because he is not licensed, it doesn't mean he isn't a good electrician with good management skills. I have worked with companies in the past where seniority of time was the preference over actual ability or entitlement. In some cases, "office personel" with no field experience at all would run jobs? I personaly teach an apprentice program right now where many of the students are older than I and with many more years of experience. However, these students are good electricians that are just getting into the education end a little later in their careers than some. I would bring your concerns to upper management and determine how they plan on using your skills and when they plan to advance your position. :)
 
Re: Apprentice running jobs?

Wolfman56, yes I have been in this situation many years ago in an area (FL) with no license to apprentice ratio. In my case I actually enjoyed watching this person make mistakes after trying to help the "hot shot" out.

I was payed the average in the area so that wasn't a problem. The problem was, that even with the entertaiment of watching this everyday, I just couldn't take it so I moved on.

Today, I would probably stick around because I would love to just do my 8 hours and go home with no headaches. Thats just me.

It sounds as though your frustration may not be short lived, so you may need to move on as I did.

Good luck

Roger
 
Re: Apprentice running jobs?

Wolfman

"Would you quit?"

NO.

I worked on ECM (electronic counter measures) in the military. Started as a "helper" for an electrical contractor.

I just asked how do you do this? They will eventually realize that you know what you are doing. The only way the could troubleshoot was to do it "hot". They had no way how to use the "wiggy" to "ring out" (continuity check) any circuits.

Play dumb. Most, not all, are intimidated by those who know more than they know.

Not dumb, not intimidated, and definitely not smart.
 
Re: Apprentice running jobs?

Is it at all possible that the company is just getting you familiar with their methods and practices by having you work with this guy, and as soon as you have done a job or two, you will go on your and maybe even get an apprentice of your own?
 
Re: Apprentice running jobs?

I wont let anyone run work unless I know them or they have worked for us for a year, It takes a year to flush out the flaws drunk ,drugs, dosnt show up ,cant communicate ,cant handle customers dose side work for my customers etc and somones strong points .If it comes down to my nephue who grew up with me and somone new my nephue will run work untill somone has proven themselves better.As an employer when I see somone with 10to 20 yrs and they arent established in a shop a shop rat :D I wonder why ?
 
Re: Apprentice running jobs?

If your state requires journeyman to be licensed then it is illegal for an apprentice to run your onsite project they are suppose to learn from you that is why they are called an apprentice Now if he was hired as a project manager that would be a different story but you certainly have the authority to question any electrical violations that he may be requesting of you. Bottom line is if you are a Journeyman and he is listed as an apprentice than you are the boss on that job if he is a Project manager (not performing installation but strictly paper managing and scheduling then he is the boss. The fact that you have a license makes you responsible for the installation on that job and if there is a violation it is your fault unless your Master Electrician Supervisor instructs you to install improperly.
 
Re: Apprentice running jobs?

I couldnt disagree more, correiaelectric
If your state requires journeyman to be licensed then it is illegal for an apprentice to run your onsite project they are suppose to learn from you that is why they are called an apprentice.
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In what code book or state administrative book is this in. I need to see that one to believe it.
Just how on earth could they ever enforce that if it were a rule?
Im an electrical contractor, and if one of my inspectors called me and said, "it seems your apprentice is in charge out here and the journeyman is taking orders from him. Im gonna write you a citation.", he would undoubtedly get an earful from me and from his boss. Inspectors have a hard enough job as it is. And it seems, that "rule" would only be setting them up to fail.
 
Re: Apprentice running jobs?

definitive,

That is rule here in the New England area.

You need at least a Journeyman's license to run any work.

It is not the local inspector that watches over this, though I am sure he can drop a dime on you, it is a State Licensing Board.

If you pull a permit with your license than have run an apprentice run the job you are subject to fines, suspension of license or after repeat offenses they can take your license permanently.

MA has a web site where they make all this, including the names of those involved public. I will try to find it and put up the link here.
 
Re: Apprentice running jobs?

Here is a link to the site Map for the Mass. License Board.

If you read the press releases you will find out about enforcement.

And you can find the laws governing who can run work.

Mass Lic. Board

[ April 20, 2003, 05:31 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]
 
Re: Apprentice running jobs?

So your telling me that even if a licenced journeyman is there, an apprentice cannot be in charge? How could anyone enforce that? I understand that you need a proper journey/apprentice ratio. And as a contractor, I follow this rule. But I have apprentices that blow alot of journeys out of the water when it comes down to it.
For example, I had a journey working for me once that had worked 6 years on multi-family dwellings. For six years all this guy did was pull service entrance conductors underground, but he had enough time in to take his test. I hired him strictly to be in compliance with local ratio.
But i put him with an apprentice thats worked for me for 3 and a half years. This kid is sharp, he just doesnt have the hours yet to get his license. In his 3.5 years hes had nothing but high-end remodel experience, thats what my company does. Hes also been in school since he started working for me learning theory, code, controls, and state administrative codes. And your telling me that when i send them out to a job, if the apprentice is showing the journey what to do, i could get a "dime dropped."? Im sorry but that sounds absolutely rediculous.

[ April 20, 2003, 02:33 PM: Message edited by: definitive ]
 
Re: Apprentice running jobs?

definitive, I agree with you 100% on a couple of items.

1) Without a doubt some apprentices are better than some licensed workers.

2) Enforcement of who is in charge if you have both licensed and unlicensed workers on the job would be difficult.

But, the fact that is hard to enforce does not IMO change the fact that they do not have a license and in the States eyes that means they are not qualified.

IMO as the owner of a business you get to choose who runs work for you, but only out of those tested and licensed by the State.

If this was not the case why hire licensed people at all?

It is much cheaper to hire unlicensed people and be able to undercut the competition who are using licensed help.

If your licensed worker can not run work get rid of them and hire a licensed worker who can.

To that you might say a talented licensed worker costs more.

Which brings me to the apprentice you describe that you are using as a licensed worker.

Do you pay them what the going rate is for a Licensed Foreman?

I doubt it, so IMO you are taking advantage of them.


By definitive
Im sorry but that sounds absolutely rediculous
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It is certainly your right to feel that way, but licensing helps us all, it keeps the workers wages up and provides some protection for the companies that use them.

I do not expect I will change your opinion, after all you are "definitive". :D

[ April 21, 2003, 06:25 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]
 
Re: Apprentice running jobs?

Well said Bob. The rules are there to protect consumers and YOU definitive. If you do not want to run a business that complies with the rules and regulations in your field you have no business being in this business. Unfortunately there are many rules and laws that some find rediculous but thats the way it is. "You mean I have to send how much of that money I busted my *** for to Uncle Sam?"
 
Re: Apprentice running jobs?

If you do not want to run a business that complies with the rules and regulations in your field you have no business being in this business.
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I think that was uncalled for. I clearly expressed in my previous post that I DO follow the rules. I ALWAYS have a licensed journeyman on site.
If this was not the case why hire licensed people at all?
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Again, I expressed in my previous post, I always follow ratio regulations.
Which brings me to the apprentice you describe that you are using as a licensed worker.

Do you pay them what the going rate is for a Licensed Foreman?
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Again, if you had completly read my post you would know that Im NOT using him as a licensed worker. Hes working with a journeyman at ALL TIMES! But he knew more about remodelling than the journeyman that happened to be working with him at the time.
And as for how much I pay him, he makes more than most licensed guys. I pay guys according to how good they are, not their time in the trade. I dont train my guys to be super fast, and I dont expect them to break their backs on the job.
Believe me, I know where you guys are comming from. Ive worked for some real scum-bags in my career, and I know the license is there to protect all of us. But dont you agree that sometimes you have to make a judgement call? Im really not trying to be argumentative, I appreciate all of the replies. But when you say the rules are sometimes ridiculous, but we must follow them anyways, Im confused as to where the rules say the journeyman has to be in charge.

[ April 21, 2003, 12:58 PM: Message edited by: definitive ]
 
Re: Apprentice running jobs?

I live and work in Mass. I guess what it comes down is semantics, what do you mean "running the job"? If you mean the helper is showing the new journeyman how you (the owner) like things done that would be ok perhaps. If the helper is laying out the work to be done and deciding code compliance issues I don't think I buy that. In Mass. if something isn't correct they won't go looking for the helper, the journyman has his license on the line. "My helper told me to do it that way" just won't cut it regardless of what you say. Its his license the helper doesn't have much to lose.
 
Re: Apprentice running jobs?

Maybe our states are different. In my state they dont go after the journeyman, they go after the administrator. Their are 2 different licenses in washington state. Journeyman and administrator. Administrator is a much harder test, but anyone can take it regardless of experience, and every electrical contractor must employ at least 1 administrator.
So when it comes down to it, maybe our states are just different.
 
Re: Apprentice running jobs?

There is not much doubt that the states could do things differently.

But you should not be surprised at some of the responses.

The way I look at it and I think some others do, is you keeping qualified licensed guys out of work, taking advantage of the apprentice and making it hard for those that follow the rules intent, (not just the literal reading of a rules) to make competitive bids. :(

Why do you think there is a ratio rule? :confused:

[ April 22, 2003, 06:23 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]
 
Re: Apprentice running jobs?

Greetings from the one who started this thread! I?m amazed at the diversity of opinions on this subject. Now that I have experienced being the journeyman under an apprentice here's my opinion.
First let me say that this job was in Oregon. Though that state is heavy with regulations, BCD has no problem with the arrangement. Same for the state of Washington! They both indicated that the apprentice could not decide ?How? it?s done, just what?s to be done.
We were doing a custom home. The apprentice asked my ?opinion? on switch locations but that?s all. The Apprentice determined how many openings and or recessed can lights per circuit, the size disconnect and wire sizes for the A.C., the number and arrangement kitchen circuits, and he did the panel.
I want to say that the apprentice was respectful to me and was. In fact he was very careful not to ?lord it over me?. He was also ?on the ball?, as he was pretty good. Oh, by the way, he was only getting paid apprentice scale.
However, this is my observation.
First off, isn?t deciding HOW a job is done a big part of running a job? Such as how many and what load openings per circuit. Being in this situation I found that I had no desire to give the apprentice any pointers or suggestions of the kind that a teacher would want to give the student, after all he?s not my apprentice. He misses out on training. Yes it?s a matter of attitude, but look at it this way. All journeyman have ?done their time? as the apprentice, and had to be subordinate to the journeyman, then with time accumulate much experience. So I see it as an insult that after many years in the trade, be put under the supervision of someone who has not even ?done their time?, this not even considering that the apprentice is young enough to be my kid.
All in all the whole idea of apprentice over journeyman while not necessarily breaking a law goes against the spirit and reason for the, ?journeyman ? apprentice? relationship. The requirement of apprentices to always be with a journeyman becomes null and without purpose. This apprentice over journeyman, is a self serving arrangement by the employer usually as a way to cut costs or show favoritism.

As far as CM?s statement:
As an employer when I see someone with 10to 20 yrs and they aren?t established in a shop a shop rat I wonder why? :D
I understand you?re implication. There are people such as I that have NEVER lost employment for anything other than his employer not having enough work. Unfortunately when you?re in the mid 40s and the company goes out of business it?s very hard to become someone else?s ?shop rat?.
Rick
 
Re: Apprentice running jobs?

The way I look at it and I think some others do, is you keeping qualified licensed guys out of work, taking advantage of the apprentice and making it hard for those that follow the rules intent, (not just the literal reading of a rules) to make competitive bids.
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I completly understand what your saying. Im not the type of contractor that wants to take advantage of his guys, and I dont believe I am.
I think most other contractors would agree that good help is getting harder and harder to find. I havent had any problems lately because Ive found some great guys that do good clean work. But, when I was searching for a journeyman last year and couldnt find a "keeper", I had to hire a sub-par guy with a license, just to keep a good apprentice working and remain in compliance while I continued my search.
Having an apprentice in charge isnt common practice for me, but it was necessary at that particular time. As far as HOW things are done, I decide that as the contractor. If something comes up that i didnt see, the I trust the judgment of the guys on site. But other than that, all they have to do is build it, Ive already designed it for them.
 
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