Apprentice running jobs?

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Re: Apprentice running jobs?

I could be wrong but I think the law in Massachusetts refers to maintiaing proper ratios of licenses to helpers. It makes not mention of who is in charge of running the work. I do find it odd that a helper would be running a job and not the licensed journeyman. If the helper is eligible for the exam, then he should take it pass it, and then there is no issue.
 
Re: Apprentice running jobs?

i got my journeymen's license while in my second year apprenticship and two years later got my masters when i was in the fourth year of my apprentiship. all though my apprentiship, foremen and general foremen would come to me for answers pertaining to the latest codes. i never ran a job, but many times i knew i was placed on a job to help out the guy running it. and i knew i had to do it without steping on anyone's toes! it really doesn't matter where the information comes from as long as the job gets done per plans and code. after i turned out i immeadiatly started running jobs until i went into business 22 years ago..
 
Re: Apprentice running jobs?

wolfman I am in the same position as your bosses nephew. Do you know for a fact that he has not "put in his time"? Apparently he has some experience or he would have been asking you a lot more questions! Is there anything wrong with what he has done? any code violations?

From the time I was 13 years old, I worked every summer on the job. I mostly just ran conduit and pulled wire but it was under the supervision of a journeyman. By the time I was 15 I worked every summer, every weekend, and most afternoons after school. I worked in plants on grain tanks and in commercial applications. I was still under the supervision of a liscensed electrician. About 6 months out of highschool I was put in the office full time. I was estimating jobs designing the electrical systems for design and build applications, buying material, and running jobs. At the time I had enough time in to take my journeyman's electrical test. Also at that tme the state of Arkansas passed a law that if you were not liscensed you had to be attending an apprenticeship school. I did not take my test and went to the 4 year apprenticeship school instead for the knowledge. I am now a liscensed journeyman wireman.

Most of the employees we have have watched me grow up and have somewhat helped raise me. I am still only 25 years old. We only have 2 employees that are younger than I am. There is a natural resentment to the bosses son (in youre case the bosses nephew). Instead of trying to justify your resentment enjoy working under him. Remember it is the bosses nephew and if he likes you then it may help your status. Your boss is not trying to undermind you he is just giving his nephew some training. Be glad that your boss chose you for the task and give him advice whenever you see that he needs it.
 
Re: Apprentice running jobs?

I've seen it many times, some in charge guy who blew smoke up some more in charge guys b-tt who did not know what he was doing either, puts some app in charge cause he blew smoke up his b-tt in the first place gets to run the job. I hope the smoke trail was easy to follow. Anyway , if the pay is good and you are getting to work on a good job I would just stand back and watch the fun begin, if not soon it will be later, about 3/4 when this install wont work and that is in the wrong place and so on.
 
Re: Apprentice running jobs?

i went through a five year apprenticeship. the fifth year was for leading jobs and there was never a problem with the journeymen. very valuable experience and we had to do it. i think the board was just getting one more year of cheap labor.
 
Re: Apprentice running jobs?

HEY WOLFMAN,,
I'M A SELF EMPLOYED CONTRACTOR IN THE NEW ENGLAND EREA,IF I WERE YOU I WOULD HANG IN, JUST TO SEE HOW THE FINISH WENT,IT COULD BE AMUSSING,,BUT IF IT REALLY BOTHERS YOU,(WITCH IT SOUNDS LIKE IT DOES) THEN DRAG UP YOUR STUFF,AND MOVE ON,BECAUSE AT THE END OF THE DAY,YOU DESERVE TO BE HAPPY,DONT FORGET THAT IT'S ALL ABOUT YOU!!
REGARDING THE LEGALITY ISUE,=BLA,BLA,BLA,,
DO WHAT YA WANT,,
 
blood is thicker......

blood is thicker......

wolfman56 said:
I,m a licensed journeyman with over 10 years experience.
The company I just started with put me on a house along with an apprentice. They put the apprentice in charge of running the job. (He happens to be one of the owners nephew's)
I admit to being really insulted and also amazed at this. Has anyone heard of this? Would you quit if you were me?
Click to expand...

than wire pulling lube....

relax and enjoy the ride.... is it "legal"? nope. is it "appropriate"? not to me.
have i been in a similar situation? yep. did i quit? nope.

this goes back a ways.... but when i was a second year apprentice, i was
given the prints to a 125 acre spec industrial complex that was just having the strawberries plowed under, and told "run it, twinkletoes".

my journeyman told me to do it. and then he worked for me for 5 months.
i had to lay it out, put it in, set valults, set gear, order materials, pour
concrete, everything. soup to nuts.

the job was figured for 5 guys, we did it by ourselves. i was being given
foremans's pay, a gas credit card, and was making the same money as
my journeyman, in my second year of apprenticeship.

i was earning it... my journeyman was, and remains, bipolar, and there
were not many medications for that in the late 70's. his personal choice
of medication was an amphetamine referred to as a "black beauty". he ate
them like jellybeans. working with him was like hanging out with atilla the
hun, on crank. not much fun, actually.

after five months, we had 22,000 feet of duct bank encased, all the gear
set, 3 of the tilt ups finished, and our profit margin was 65%. we had no
expenses incurred for the pvc, backhoe, concrete encasement, or backfill.
just two foreman's labor. and i'd lost 30 pounds.

it was an interesting job.... i learned a lot. it was the single best learning
experience i've ever had, on a number of different levels. i learned how
to get it done, do it right, not screw up the underground, and make a profit.

let your muppet give it his best shot. he's gotta learn sometime, and
now is handy. if he screws up, it's not your responsibility, and maybe
you'll get the chance to teach him a couple things in the process.

when i've had apprentices over the years, one of the things i always
do is drop them in the hot seat, and let them run it for a while.

i understand your situation is different. it wasn't YOUR choice to let
the muppet run with it.... but it isn't your responsibilty if it turns out
fuddled up, either.

good luck... have fun.


randy
 
Randy, despite pulling up an ancient thread, well said.

However, I have the feeling it won't reach the intended party.
 
cm said:
As an employer when I see somone with 10to 20 yrs and they arent established in a shop a shop rat :D I wonder why ?
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cm,
I have never been around a shop more than 3 years.
Why? Shops fold, some get rid of everyone after every job. Sometimes even the best get RIF. I have been in every one of those cases.

Now I own my own shop. Now those people I used to work with and work for want to work for me...
 
definitive said:
I couldnt disagree more, correiaelectric In what code book or state administrative book is this in. I need to see that one to believe it.
Just how on earth could they ever enforce that if it were a rule?
Im an electrical contractor, and if one of my inspectors called me and said, "it seems your apprentice is in charge out here and the journeyman is taking orders from him. Im gonna write you a citation.", he would undoubtedly get an earful from me and from his boss. Inspectors have a hard enough job as it is. And it seems, that "rule" would only be setting them up to fail.
Click to expand...

In the state of Colorado, you must pass a test to become a "licensed journeyman." When you sign that paper the first time, you are given a paper that tells you that you are "responsible" for everything you or your apprentices do.

Now... In the state of Colorado, the ratio varies from 1:1 to 1:3 (J-man to Apprentice). If there are 4 apprentices on the job, I don't care who's running the job, who is the inspector going to call??? Not the apprentice!

If I am a Journeyman, and I am responsible for my apprentice(s), I am certainly not goint to take orders from him, and he will not be running the job. Simply put, the Journeyman has a license for a reason.

Allright, I'll get off the soap box now...
Greg
 
Apprentice running jobs

Apprentice running jobs

It is wrong for him to run the job, you have to at least have a city card here. I would probably move own. It could be he is just trying to show you the ropes and then you will move up. Life is too short to work where you are not appreciated and do not enjoy your work. Semper Fi Buddy
 
I started reading this thread from the beginning, not realizing it was a 4-year-old thread.

These kinds of situations always have interesting backstories - this happened to me, only I was the apprentice and the journeyman was the highest paid employee of the company. He was the first journeyman I worked under, the black sheep son-in-law of the owner, and it was an incredibly awkward situation. He was a good worker and a good person. Sometimes his social skills were lacking, but not so bad that he could not communicate with a GC effectively. IMO, he was simply being persecuted.

I ended the failed experiment at my first available moment. I tested and passed for my Residential Wireman license (a two-year license useless in Wyoming, the state we were working in), and used it as an excuse to get transferred back to Colorado.

He pulled himself up by his bootstraps, took over the Wyoming job and proceeded to work extremely hard and achieve unbelieveable efficiency for little credit. The last I'd heard, he still was ignoring the writing on the wall as best he could.
 
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I know that we are responsible for having the correct ratio, but I don't know of anyplace that defines the pecking order. I know usual common sense says who tells whom what to do, but I don't know where that is defined, and don't live in NJ, so don't feel like reading all of your rules. Does it really state that an apprentice cannot tell a Journeyman what to do on a daily basis?
 
wolfman56 said:
I,m a licensed journeyman with over 10 years experience.
The company I just started with put me on a house along with an apprentice. They put the apprentice in charge of running the job. (He happens to be one of the owners nephew's)
I admit to being really insulted and also amazed at this. Has anyone heard of this? Would you quit if you were me?
Click to expand...

A four year old post is like reading ancient history.

I think that anytime that you think that you should be running the job (most qualified not just old ) that you should go to the owner and tell him straight out. Many people like to grumble about things but take no action.
If you show that you have got a set then they will respect it, they may fire you but they will do it with respect. :smile:
 
In order to prevent more unsuspecting victims from reading through a long discussion before noticing it stared four years ago, I am going to close this thread.

If anyone has someing new to add to the concept of apprentices running jobs, please start a new thread.
 
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