Apprenticeship questions - union vs nonunion

[VA Electrician]

Joining local 26

I know this topic can be like kicking up a hornet’s nest, so please keep it civil. I’m just interested in people’s experiences in the trade.

I’m an apprentice living in Gainesville, VA. I have some residential experience but currently work for a non-union commercial company.

Ive always wanted to speak with some people in the electrical union to see if it really is a better fit for me and my family. That’s why I’m making this post. I need help with pros/cons of joining union.

One reason I haven’t joined IBEW is I wanted to become a licensed master electrician and someday maybe have my own residential/ small commercial business. My understanding (please correct me if I’m wrong), is that IBEW doesn’t certify people with the state for journeyman and master’s certifications. That would make it more difficult to get jobs elsewhere if I ever decided to leave IBEW and join a non-union company.

I’ve often thought that once I finish my 5 years and test for my master’s license, then I’ll look into the union. So I can have the certification and still join.

I’m concerned with being hired by non-union contractors if I ever decide to leave the union. There seems to be animosity on both sides of the discussion and I would hate to close the door to future nonunion employment if things don’t work out in the union. Does there seem to be bias with nonunion companies on hiring union guys? If things went well in the union, this wouldn’t be a problem as I’d stay there.

I also don’t really think I’ll be long for the field work. I don’t enjoy working in the field as much and I don’t think I’m great at it. The daily grind has been hard on my body. I hope to someday transition to a foreman/ project manager role because I’m good at planning and working with people. I’d love to get into something more consistent and easier on the body. How does that work for older guys in the union?

My company does have a lot of scale work, but I never really get those opportunities. For some reason, despite my protesting, I’ve been typecasted to work in low voltage cat6 work in data centers that my company does on the side. I’m not really getting opportunities to work on big projects from the ground up to see all the facets of the electrical trade.

Ive always heard union school was great. My school I attend is a joke. They give you all the answers so you pass. It’s not rigorous at all. I wonder if it’s better to get into the union before finishing school because I heard theirs is good. I’m always at the top of my class and genuinely enjoy electrical school.

I’ve also been worried about lay offs with the union. I’ve heard of guys going on unemployment or sitting around the union hall looking for a job. I even asked a guy in the union who told me he’s been laid off a few times. My understanding is that local 26 is packed with work, so that’s not as much of an issue of that chapter, specifically.

I’ve heard guys outside the union saying that once you leave the company and join the union, they’ll treat you differently as they know you can’t go back. The union guys who recruit you won’t fulfill their promises, knowing you can’t go back to your old job.

It just seems to me (I could be wrong) that in the union you’re more of a number. You’re expendable because you’re a cog in a big machine. They do things like lay offs and putting you on the bench whereas nonunion contractors promise you 40 hours as long as you’re there as an employee.

What are travel times like in the union? The furthest I’ve had to travel with my company is 55 miles from my house. Not bad, all things considered. But I live in Gainesville, so I’m pretty central to a lot of things. What can I expect for travel in the union?

What is camaraderie like among union brothers? My company now is really good for that. A lot of families and older guys who have been around for a while and are generally nice and welcoming guys.

Are there any opportunities as a union electrician to work in service work? Specifically residential, but I’m open to both. I’ve always enjoyed residential over commercial, but I’m in commercial because I’m not a great salesman and the money is better. I’d love doing some residential type work someday.

I’m also super interested in security clearance work. Is there any of that in the union? I have a perfect legal record, so I could pass any background check. My company doesn’t have any opportunities like that right now and they’d probably choose someone else if they did.

I’m not even going to go into pay. A guy I know who just joined the union just got a pay increase of $18 per hour when he joined. Not including benefits. I know that would be much better for me. But I’m willing to take less now if it’s better for my future as a whole.

What are your thoughts? I’m open to any and all suggestions! Thanks for taking the time to read all this.

 

[Little Bill]

Warning!
Any bashing of one way or the other will get this closed pronto!

 

[hillbilly1]

Depends on how strong the Union is in your area. If it is mostly Union, going with the Union apprenticeship is the way to go. If it is majority open shop, then IEC is the way to go. Gives you bigger opportunities depending on which is the majority.

 

[NoahsArc]

I've worked non-union and union. I found union to be a considerable improvement, but basically everything varies by location. VA being in the South sort of, I'm inclined to think the union there probably isn't as beefy as a stronghold like IL.

One reason I haven’t joined IBEW is I wanted to become a licensed master electrician and someday maybe have my own residential/ small commercial business.

If it's residential, union is not the path; if it's commercial, it's neutral. Actually, I'd say starting any EC is considerably easier non-union, but you will have less experience and probably less capable training non-union. Benefits/pay/conditions are almost universally better in the union, but that's a big claim I know.
The union generally doesn't do residential work, and building an EC in that sphere means leaving the union ultimately.

My understanding (please correct me if I’m wrong), is that IBEW doesn’t certify people with the state for journeyman and master’s certifications. That would make it more difficult to get jobs elsewhere if I ever decided to leave IBEW and join a non-union company.

No clue where you got that from. Licensing varies by state. In IL here, everyone, union or not, has to apply and obtain their own certs.
The union did give us everything needed to gain a cert, including an excellent course on the codebook and learning to pass the cert, but the union cannot legally just give away certs like that here, nor can anyone.

I’ve often thought that once I finish my 5 years and test for my master’s license, then I’ll look into the union. So I can have the certification and still join.

They usually don't want people to do that, they want you to go through the apprenticeship. Each local is different, and you certainly can "test in" or "organize in" with your shop, but most who go union do it from the ground up.

I also don’t really think I’ll be long for the field work. I don’t enjoy working in the field as much and I don’t think I’m great at it. The daily grind has been hard on my body. I hope to someday transition to a foreman/ project manager role because I’m good at planning and working with people. I’d love to get into something more consistent and easier on the body. How does that work for older guys in the union?

Are you highly disciplined, a good communicator, good with numbers, good with code lookups, meticulous, good at managing people?
Lots of guys want to be a foreman, not everyone is cut out for it.
Maybe look into business administration if you don't actually like trade work...

My company does have a lot of scale work, but I never really get those opportunities. For some reason, despite my protesting, I’ve been typecasted to work in low voltage cat6 work in data centers that my company does on the side. I’m not really getting opportunities to work on big projects from the ground up to see all the facets of the electrical trade.

How many years do you have that you can request specific assignments and have any expectation to receive them?
Anywhere you go as an apprentice, your contractor tells you what to do. Apprentices don't get that level of control generally.

Ive always heard union school was great. My school I attend is a joke. They give you all the answers so you pass.

Depends on local. Here we have probably the best school in the country in the union.

I’ve also been worried about lay offs with the union. I’ve heard of guys going on unemployment or sitting around the union hall looking for a job. I even asked a guy in the union who told me he’s been laid off a few times. My understanding is that local 26 is packed with work, so that’s not as much of an issue of that chapter, specifically.

Layoffs are regular for some. They have an employment agency within the union (the "book"), and layoffs are somewhat by design.
That said, if you are a good performer and foreman, you likely won't get laid off. Many never do. It's variable.
People get laid off from non-union ECs too. They don't have a magical "make endless work" wand they can wave either. If work dries up, you don't get paid, doesn't matter what contract you're under. It's never a charity.

It just seems to me (I could be wrong) that in the union you’re more of a number. You’re expendable because you’re a cog in a big machine. They do things like lay offs and putting you on the bench whereas nonunion contractors promise you 40 hours as long as you’re there as an employee.

You're a number everywhere, no company cares about you ultimately, welcome to adulthood.

 

[busman]

As far as I know, the only certification you would need from the Union would be the hours worked to sit for your Journeyman or Master's licenses. It's been 25 years, but I think you just need 8,000 hours work experience and 240 classroom hours to sit for Journeyman and one year elapsed before taking the Master.

Mark

 

[Elect117]

Union helps with some of the long term benefits like health, dental, retirement. You don't have to worry as much if you end up going from one company to another, so long as they are hiring from the same local.

Hours and hourly might not stay the same but it is nice to have a standard health benefit for the family. Keeps things simpler if anyone is chronically sick or requires monthly medications. Getting different health benefits depending on the company that is employing you is rough.

But you can be tied to the hall. I don't know if all of it works the same but some guys can end up on the books for a while waiting to be picked up.

 

[petersonra]

I mostly deal with industrial. Some electricians are union, some not. I have run into really good ones that are union and non-union. I have run into some real clunkers with union shops but not so much with non-union. But I have a smallish sample set.

I think you have to ask yourself what your long term goal is and align yourself that way. Things are different geographically and by market niche.

Benefits for unions are sometimes better and you will likely get a pension instead of a 401k, if that matters to you. But the pension ties you to the job where as a 401k you can take with you.

I can't tell much difference in training, but I can say the very best guys I have run into were non union working for themselves. But they are few by comparison to the masses of electricians out there. I think working for yourself brings out the best in people, and as a union guy you will never experience that. But maybe you prefer not to work for yourself.

 

[Elect117]

I can't tell much difference in training, but I can say the very best guys I have run into were non union working for themselves. But they are few by comparison to the masses of electricians out there. I think working for yourself brings out the best in people, and as a union guy you will never experience that. But maybe you prefer not to work for yourself.

I know a bunch of union guys that started their own shops and stayed union. They just had to hire from the hall. Maybe it takes longer to finish the apprenticeship than meeting the minimum requirements for the contractor's license? I could imagine getting your own license and started your own company as quick as possible as being an attractive option over staying in an apprenticeship working under someone else.

 

[mtnelect]

I went through the IBEW Local 11 apprenticeship program and recommended that path.

 

[infinity]

I spent 37 years in the IBEW in NYC. Yes there are absolute benefits but there may also be the issue of politics. Local #3 is a very political union and I did my best to avoid the political aspects of union membership. They would argue that is part of their strength.

If I were looking to take a certain path in 2025 it would be the same one I chose back in the 80's. What I found to be the most important question you can ask is will I have a steady job. In my entire career I was never laid off but I have plenty of union brothers and sisters who spent over a year sitting on the bench. It's a lot to digest.

In the end for me the promise of a solid pension, paid vacations, a 401K, and medical benefits for myself and my wife for life made the decision very easy.

 

[tom baker]

the big advantage of an apprenticeship program and when you turn out the hours are basically verified. So if want to get certified in WA, you apply and being an apprenticeship graduate moves the approval process much much faster. You still have to take a j level test but that can be done at a testing center

 

[ramsy]

I’m concerned with being hired by non-union contractors if I ever decide to leave the union.

Union JATC, and non-union EIC, or ABC require the same government-approved apprenticeships, where student truancy, or walking off a job, subject students to cancellation.

The majority of students are cancelled by the contractor sponsors of the indentured apprentices, and the government program disqualifies those students from repeat attempts.

Private-trade school job placement, with any qualified-employer apprenticeship, risk similar cause for cancellation for truancy, or job-site conduct, but student loans become due for the entire 4-yr program. For flaking off, wage-garnishment judgments in excess of $100,000 are not unusual.

Public colleges charge tuition by semester units for a trade curriculum, but if college job boards wont indicate government-qualified apprenticeships, college students must hustle their own qualified employers for journey-level certification.

Employers are not forced to run approved apprenticeships, and local governments don't count those work hours for master, or contractor license, if not certified journey-level experience.

States may have laws to accommodate contractor-license applications from self-employment, and apprentice flunkies, but license-board agents are trained to hang up the phone on those efforts, since handyman work is not legal if dollar amounts exceed unlicensed-minor work exceptions.

Without a licensed builder to sign off on 8000 hours of work experience, combined with qualified transcripts, unlicensed invoices are scrutinized by enforcement divisions for illegality, before counted as qualified experience for a license. In my state that takes 100's of minor-service invoices.

After witnessing job-site accidents got me cancelled from the government apprenticeship program in 2005, a college degree was combined with 20 years of minor-service invoices, to document enough experience without a licensed builder signing off my hours.

Without the apprenticeship, matching my business practice to law forced government to let me sit for the license exams. And the self-employed service work allowed me to turn hazard shutdown into a show of confidence for clients breathing down my neck.

 

[petersonra]

I know a bunch of union guys that started their own shops and stayed union. They just had to hire from the hall. Maybe it takes longer to finish the apprenticeship than meeting the minimum requirements for the contractor's license? I could imagine getting your own license and started your own company as quick as possible as being an attractive option over staying in an apprenticeship working under someone else.

I think most places you have to have a journeyman license to sit for the contractor test. But maybe I am mistaken on that.

The problem with hiring out of the hall is you never know what you are going to get and often don't have much choice. You might get good and fast workers or something less. If you are on tight margins like most startups are, having half a$$ed work is a big problem.

OTOH, if you are trying to get into union type contracts, you are pretty much stuck with going thru the hall.

I think you have to decide what kind of business you want to run first and then structure your business around that.

 

[hillbilly1]

I think most places you have to have a journeyman license to sit for the contractor test. But maybe I am mistaken on that.

The problem with hiring out of the hall is you never know what you are going to get and often don't have much choice. You might get good and fast workers or something less. If you are on tight margins like most startups are, having half a$$ed work is a big problem.

OTOH, if you are trying to get into union type contracts, you are pretty much stuck with going thru the hall.

I think you have to decide what kind of business you want to run first and then structure your business around that.

Georgia is one that does not have a journeyman license. My old boss sat on the construction board and tried to get it added, but it didn’t go anywhere. All we have is a class I and class II, one is a master’s license, the other is basically a residential license, I think 400 amps or less.

 

[NoahsArc]

I think most places you have to have a journeyman license to sit for the contractor test. But maybe I am mistaken on that.

IL doesn't have a strict system. It doesn't have state licensing at all. Each city does its own thing. ICC-equivalent testing is required. Some cities call their contractor registrations "licenses", but in practice it's an unclear distinction, as other cities don't call them licenses but the end effect is similar.... Some cities' "licenses" are just more broadly accepted by other cities.

The only journeyman license we have here is the ICC sign one. But any "license" will require a completed apprenticeship.

 

[James L]

Almost 100% of the time, what gets lost in these inquiries about union versus non-union is someone's personality.

Union life has a different mentality from non-union life. Not that either one is bad or good, or any better or worse than the other. But you should understand whether or not your personality fits with one of those.

I could never work union for a few reasons...
I'm late to work everyday

I don't like being told what kind of clothes to wear - including shoes or boots

I don't mind doing the work of another trade if it helps get the whole job done faster.

I prefer a 100% merit system because I would be near the top

But the union has several things going for it:
I think the training is much better because it's structured according to what you're working on.

You don't have to actively look for a job because you can get on the books and wait

Safety protocols are usually better in the union

I think you generally have solidarity

Maybe a wash:

Union benefits are probably better - but not necessarily

Union pay is probably better - but not necessarily

But I think if you put those two at the top of your list, you just might be disappointed. Search within yourself and find out. Are you a good fit for one of those two scenarios

 

[hillbilly1]

Almost 100% of the time, what gets lost in these inquiries about union versus non-union is someone's personality.

Union life has a different mentality from non-union life. Not that either one is bad or good, or any better or worse than the other. But you should understand whether or not your personality fits with one of those.

I could never work union for a few reasons...
I'm late to work everyday

I don't like being told what kind of clothes to wear - including shoes or boots

I don't mind doing the work of another trade if it helps get the whole job done faster.

I prefer a 100% merit system because I would be near the top

But the union has several things going for it:
I think the training is much better because it's structured according to what you're working on.

You don't have to actively look for a job because you can get on the books and wait

Safety protocols are usually better in the union

I think you generally have solidarity

Maybe a wash:

Union benefits are probably better - but not necessarily

Union pay is probably better - but not necessarily

But I think if you put those two at the top of your list, you just might be disappointed. Search within yourself and find out. Are you a good fit for one of those two scenarios

Large Non-Union contractors don’t tolerate lateness either, so that’s not a Union thing. Safety protocols are usually better in the Unions because the project managers don’t have as much say on how the job is done, but like non Union, there is always that one guy that thinks he can do something dangerous because he thinks he is qualified. We’ve had several Union subs that worked dangerously, and were severely injured or killed. Non-Union contractors have dress codes too, but are not as strict enforcing.

 

[James L]

Large Non-Union contractors don’t tolerate lateness either, so that’s not a Union thing. Safety protocols are usually better in the Unions because the project managers don’t have as much say on how the job is done, but like non Union, there is always that one guy that thinks he can do something dangerous because he thinks he is qualified. We’ve had several Union subs that worked dangerously, and were severely injured or killed. Non-Union contractors have dress codes too, but are not as strict enforcing.

I get what you're saying, but I worked for a large non-union shop in the 90s. They tolerated my tardiness for 7 years, and made other concessions which would never have happened in a union setting

I had to push back hard against their over-reaching safety/dress protocols, and told them to let me know when they wanted to start strictly enforcing them so I would know when I needed to start looking for another job. I won my way.

But that shop was literally one out of a thousand. The other 999 are night and day different from union work

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Almost 100% of the time, what gets lost in these inquiries about union versus non-union is someone's personality.

Union life has a different mentality from non-union life. Not that either one is bad or good, or any better or worse than the other. But you should understand whether or not your personality fits with one of those.

I could never work union for a few reasons...
I'm late to work everyday

I don't like being told what kind of clothes to wear - including shoes or boots

I don't mind doing the work of another trade if it helps get the whole job done faster.

I prefer a 100% merit system because I would be near the top

But the union has several things going for it:
I think the training is much better because it's structured according to what you're working on.

You don't have to actively look for a job because you can get on the books and wait

Safety protocols are usually better in the union

I think you generally have solidarity

Maybe a wash:

Union benefits are probably better - but not necessarily

Union pay is probably better - but not necessarily

But I think if you put those two at the top of your list, you just might be disappointed. Search within yourself and find out. Are you a good fit for one of those two scenarios

Remember that the union scale is a minimum....many of the better workers working for union contractors get paid over scale.

 

[infinity]

Remember that the union scale is a minimum....many of the better workers working for union contractors get paid over scale.

That's correct. I was paid over-scale for a majority of my career. The more value you brought to the table the more over-scale you could negotiate. For someone like a general foreman on a large project typically that translated to about $10/hr over-scale and then an additional one to two hours of overtime everyday.