Approved prints

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highkvoltage

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I just installed a new service in a store that is 30 years old. It is in a strip plaza. I installed the service as to the specs stated on the prints. Now the electrical inspector claims I have redo the entire service because the prints should not have been approved. I had doubts but if their stamped you installed it the way they are approved. The business owner is very upset and so am I. I went to talk to them and they wouldn't budge. I just don't feel this is fair. As anyone have this happen to them and what how did you resolve it. A PE designed the system.
 
Re: Approved prints

If this service was not installed to code then it's your responsibility to know the code. but if it's some bad call by the inspector that is above code then I would look into what the AHJ could call and see if there is state laws that they have to follow. or if the PE might have to get involved to clear this up. I know strip mall could be a headache as most areas require buildings that can be sold as separate buildings because they have a fire wall between them require that each have it's own seperate service. Otherwise you will have other peoples feeders running accross property that does not belong to them. and with out any utiliy agreement they could cut them and nobody could say a word.
 
Re: Approved prints

Most prints I have seen used and they all have to be approved at one point or another have a disclaimer All work must conform to local codes or something to that effect.How many times have we seen a print for a hime that has 10 ft of counterspace in a kitchen and 1 receptacle or again something to that effect
 
Re: Approved prints

That stamp that says "must meet code" is there way out if they miss anything on plan review and the inspector catches it.Down here the stamped approved set of prints better be on the job site or your not getting inspected.And if your service is changed any then it must go back thru the engineer dept and county.
 
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A slight bit long with a different outcome but a similar scenario, about 2 years ago I started what I thought was a new installation for the City of Chicago School District. I just started working for a different Electrical Contractor on their service truck and was told to complete what I thought was a new elevator installation and fire alarm system. In between service calls, and while working on the job, I had noticed that there were code violations involving the elevator recall, the disconnecting means of the elevator, and the proper interlocks with the fire alarm system among other things. Instead of just doing my job and completing the installation as per the print, I attempted to be a conscientious and good electrician and tried to get answers to the questions regarding the violations, and what I would need to do to address these problems. My boss (The Owner) always seemed to avoid giving me a me a direct answer as to how he wanted the violations addressed, he would just say ?I?ll Get Back To You?, he never did, I would always have to call him back and remind him. This went on for several months and since this was a school, I was pretty concerned myself with the safety of the students, since the majority of students using the elevator were handicapped. I decided to correct some of the violations myself ?Big Mistake?? During the installation and after being quite frustrated with the lack of answers from my boss regarding my concerns, I contacted the general contractor to find out what he wanted done. The general contractor seemed to be a very nice guy and I felt I could confide in him. The general contractor told me that the job was ?Not New? but actually 3 years old. The prints ?Small Photocopies With Only Portions Of The Actual Print ? I had been working off of lacked complete detail, so I never saw a date. The prints were actually approved in 1999 and it was now 2002. The job was delayed due to structural problems with the elevator shaft attachment to the existing building; the building was actually starting to lean outward due to the failure of the brick mortar. The original inspectors and the general contractor were concerned with a total collapse of the building section, taking the new elevator shaft with it. The general contractor told me straight out to do the job off of the original prints even if they were wrong and the inspectors would red tag the job because the job didn?t meet current code, that would also created much needed extras ?I was actually somewhat surprised to hear a general contractor say he was willing to pay for the extras from the electrical contractor, City Politics I guess?. I still didn?t feel safe with his answer and contacted my boss to see if he agreed. After a long conversation on the phone, my boss gave me a ?Round About? answer to my questions and concerns. He never actually told me to complete the job as per the prints ?wrong?, but strongly hinted that I should do so, even if they were not up to code. He also hinted but never actually revealed he was interested in the extras also. I guess he felt by not telling me directly, he was interested in the extras and if he didn?t get them, he could just blame me for not doing the job up to code. I was finally relieved of the reasonability which I felt should have been with my boss, the architect or the general contractor. I completed the job in what I thought was pretty good time, considering I had very few questions answered during the installation and also considering I did correct many of the violations myself ?On My Own Time?, ?Another Big Mistake?. The job still didn?t meet code completely but would have been easily corrected due to the extra effort I made; it also was never ?Red Tagged?. I was eventually told through the grapevine that, the job was completed as per the original ?Approved Prints? and even though the job was not done to ?Current Code?, the job was done to the ?Existing Code At The Time Of Approval?. I don?t know if you can actually compare the scenarios, especially since the installation I was working on was basically done for the City and I?m sure politics might have been involved?

Nick
 
Re: Approved prints

My problem lies within the system here. The PE summits the plans to the county they accept or as for the plans to be revised. When everyone is happy they stamp them. Now if you know there is a problem with the prints and you make the changes to meet code they red flag you because you did not follow the approved prints. Or if you don't make the changes they red flag you because you aren't to code. They are not very consistant by any means and some contractors will not do business in our county. It is a joke here.
 
Re: Approved prints

I can understand your concern and it?s not all that uncommon. The problem can be handled, though it might be a little late for you. I recently worked on a hospital job here and was amazed that during the year I was on the job, I never saw or heard of an electrical inspector paying a visit to the job. The only inspector that showed up was for the ComEd Vault and he was from ComEd. I?ve been off the job for almost a year now and have still kept in contact with some of the guys, all of which would be aware of any electrical inspections being done. In almost 2 years, still no electrical inspections? There are violations in this building that I am aware of, some of them major. Will they ever be found? I would highly doubt it! They are all covered up now! My suggestion to you would be to call the inspector frequently, have him inspect your job regularly. I?ve done this myself, in the past and some of the inspectors were happy to come by and look things over, others were aggravated but, that?s what they get paid for, use them, don?t wait for the final inspection to find out you have major problems that needs to be addressed. Even if you call them and talk to them over the phone, if they?re too busy to come out, you might be able to get your questions answered verbally.

Good Luck,
Nick
 
Re: Approved prints

Originally posted by highkvoltage: Now the electrical inspector claims I have redo the entire service because the prints should not have been approved.
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I am confused. Does the Inspector want you to rip it out, and wait for approval, and then install the exact same thing a second time? Is the issue that some government approval had not been properly obtained, or was there a technical problem or code violation in the design?
 
Re: Approved prints

Charlie. The old panel was in the bathroom. I knew this is a violation with 213.70 (B)(?) but I talked to them over the phone prior and so did the PE. They said since it is existing they do see a problem and also the restroom is not for the public. I had major concerns over this so the PE and myself decided to summit the plans showing the old location. They stamped them giving me approval to locate to panel in the old location. I called for an inspection and they have a fit. I agrued that if they wanted it moved why not just say so from the beginning and I would have moved it. They going to allow to keep the panel there but they want a main disconnect at the meter base and a closet/cabinet built around the panel. But this causes other problems because the old service cables now become feeders and have to be changed plus other things. The property owners are having a fit because they have already paid and I have explained this is between them, the PE and the county and I would have to charge them for the additional work. :mad:
 
Re: Approved prints

Oh, I have a good one...it has nothing to do with electric but with the "plan review" process or should I say lack of where I work.

Just for background...I'm a City Inspector and have 8 years electrical background (75% of that in commercial work so I've read my share of blueprints).

Ok. I was called to do a final on a church addition. Everything seemed fine, there were a few small things that needed to be corrected, some electrical, some finish structural but no big deal UNTIL I went into the handicap stall of the bathroom.

The friggin toilet was smack dab in the middle of the stall. I laughed and looked at the contractor and said "What the hell were you thinking? How is anyone suppose to reach the grab bars?"

He smiled, shrugged and said "It was on the plans like this."

I went back to the office and pulled the plans. Sure enough, it was exactly what the plans showed. And they were approved that way.

Now think about this...it passed plan review that way, rough in slab plumbing inspection, and top out plumbing inspection. No one caught it before I went for the final.

Amazing isn't it? If plans aren't being reviewed for accessibility, I know darn well they ain't being checked for much of anything else.

Reminded me of that "help I've fallen and I can't get up" commercial.
 
Re: Approved prints

The plan review in my city typically involves looking only at the service and adding a note "subject to field verification." May aslo include a note about MC and flex not being allowed in the city if he is in a good mood.
have also seen the not "nice set of plans"
 
Re: Approved prints

Originally posted by shocker3218:
The plan review in my city typically involves looking only at the service and adding a note "subject to field verification." May aslo include a note about MC and flex not being allowed in the city if he is in a good mood.
have also seen the not "nice set of plans"
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Are they charging you a plan review fee for this?

My reviews are normally about 20 items for a commercial job. I require the fault current calculations and all things discussed in 215.5, amomng others. I couldn't justify my reviewing the plans and charging a fee for it otherwise.

[ August 09, 2004, 10:55 PM: Message edited by: ryan_618 ]
 
Re: Approved prints

no fee charged for the plan review. It is simply the chief inspector getting his chance to look at and "approve" the drawings.
 
Re: Approved prints

Well I changed to meet current code. 4 hours and $700 in material. Now to build the cabniet. Thank you all.
 
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