APT COMPLEX WITH 768 ZINSCO PANEL . $$$$$

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donaldelectrician said:
Do you think we can overcome the AFCI requirement in 2 years ?


I Hope So , No AFCI's .




Don
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Nope just that there is an exception in the 2014 NEC that allows for a panel changeout without AFCI's

California will be moving to the new CEC which will be based on 2014 NEC.
 
Good news for CA. I hope they do not include the AFCI's in Amendments to the CEC , like we have here in SF. CA.

So new construction still requires AFCI's . We have to stop that .





Don
 
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donaldelectrician said:
Good news for CA. I hope they do not include the AFCI's in Amendments to the NEC , like we have here in SF. CA.

So new construction still requires AFCI's . We have to stop that .





Don
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AFCI ' for new construction is a requirement to the CALIF Electric code the state is on. Just not the entire home. Kitchen and Bath still excluded.


What AFCI amendments do you have in San Francisco?
 
Sierrasparky said:
AFCI ' for new construction is a requirement to the CALIF Electric code the state is on. Just not the entire home. Kitchen and Bath still excluded.


What AFCI amendments do you have in San Francisco?
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AFCI's came in through the Bedroom and now you can not get them out of the house .

I will have to LookUp the Amendments for SF, 2013 CEC I believe ? I am retired .




Don
 
petersonra said:
just out of curiosity. what is your criteria for "failing"? None of the pictures show temperatures that are all that high.
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Isn't it interesting how IR viewing of a narrow span looks so dangerous. I'm with you on that; the wires carrying relatively high currents are warmer ... surprise? The only photo that concerned me was the one with open buss at relatively high temperature.
 
No SF Bases their Amendments on the CEC , I believe .

I have worked all over this country , and you have to check everywhere for Amendments to what code cycle ect. they are on .

In 2007 , I had the NYC Code , big book . California has the CEC . I would still check every city or town in the Bay Area for any local codes .






Don
 
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donaldelectrician said:
Good news for CA. I hope they do not include the AFCI's in Amendments to the CEC , like we have here in SF. CA.

So new construction still requires AFCI's . We have to stop that .

Don
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donaldelectrician said:
AFCI's came in through the Bedroom and now you can not get them out of the house .

I will have to LookUp the Amendments for SF, 2013 CEC I believe ? I am retired .

Don
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donaldelectrician said:
No SF Bases their Amendments on the CEC , I believe .

I have worked all over this country , and you have to check everywhere for Amendments to what code cycle ect. they are on .

In 2007 , I had the NYC Code , big book . California has the CEC . I would still check every city or town in the Bay Area for any local codes .

Don
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Ok I am thoroughly confused he regarding CA code. .
First California electrical code is the 2013 CEC. to be replaced by the 2016 CEC in roughly jan 2017.
The California code is based on the NEC code that precedes it.
Local city county amendments to the codes Title 24 can only be made with express findings of climatic , seismic , or topographic.
I seriously don't think that one could make a legitimate case that would enable greater usage of AFCI due to one of the 3 conditions.

All that will be done is follow the 2014 NEC with some changes not amendments. The draft should be out soon.
And by the way SF has no amendments to the CEC filed this cycle. So any AHJ that is making anything up needs to be schooled.
 
Sierrasparky said:
Ok I am thoroughly confused he regarding CA code. .
First California electrical code is the 2013 CEC. to be replaced by the 2016 CEC in roughly jan 2017.
The California code is based on the NEC code that precedes it.
Local city county amendments to the codes Title 24 can only be made with express findings of climatic , seismic , or topographic.
I seriously don't think that one could make a legitimate case that would enable greater usage of AFCI due to one of the 3 conditions.

All that will be done is follow the 2014 NEC with some changes not amendments. The draft should be out soon.
And by the way SF has no amendments to the CEC filed this cycle. So any AHJ that is making anything up needs to be schooled.
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Sirrasparky ... I was on top of it in 2009 , The SF Amendments were like 26 pages . I just looked and this popped up ... SF based on the 2013 CEC based on the 2011 NEC and these are the Amendments . You have to keep following next page ect .and so on , and ordinances .

http://www.amlegal.com/nxt/gateway.dll/California/sfbuilding/electricalcode2013edition?f=templates$fn=default.htm$3.0$vid=amlegal:sanfrancisco_ca$anc=JD_Electrical

Also check Title 24 codes ...The CA Energy codes ect. ect . and do this for every city and town for Bay Area .


The fun thing is through all the different types of work , commercial , industrial , Residential ... I have never ever installed a AFCI or been required to , anywhere i have worked in the country .


Have Fun :

Don
 
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Sierrasparky said:
.
They still make those Feed through panels. You won't find to many as most landlords don't want the electric bill.
Thanks I always wanted a electronic copy. Wish it fit on my phone. too big.
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I wonder if it is some sort of Projects where the Landlord gets government $ for rentals .




Don
 
You probably do have experience in thermal imaging and have considered the following factors:

The camera's emissivity is set wrong.
The camera is not calibrated to the environment.
The hot spot is a normal operation under normal current flow.
The hot spot does not necessary mean bad connection.
The thermographer is standing at the wrong spot and a change in location will reveal the true temperature.



IMO, replace the ZINSCO with better brand (Square-D) don't do patch job.
 
donaldelectrician said:
Sirrasparky ... I was on top of it in 2009 , The SF Amendments were like 26 pages . I just looked and this popped up ... SF based on the 2013 CEC based on the 2011 NEC and these are the Amendments . You have to keep following next page ect .and so on , and ordinances .

http://www.amlegal.com/nxt/gateway.dll/California/sfbuilding/electricalcode2013edition?f=templates$fn=default.htm$3.0$vid=amlegal:sanfrancisco_ca$anc=JD_Electrical

Also check Title 24 codes ...The CA Energy codes ect. ect . and do this for every city and town for Bay Area .


The fun thing is through all the different types of work , commercial , industrial , Residential ... I have never ever installed a AFCI or been required to , anywhere i have worked in the country .


Have Fun :

Don
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So when you install a new circuit for areas that require AFCI you do not install AFCI and still pass inspection?? In the SF Bay area?
 
edward said:
So when you install a new circuit for areas that require AFCI you do not install AFCI and still pass inspection?? In the SF Bay area?
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No , I am retired for awhile now . I do not know the up to date AFCI code in SF . Where ever i have worked in the US , I have never been required to instal a AFCI by code cycle the area was on or type of work commercial , industrial , residential I was doing .

I have always been strict with the code and inspections . That is our Trade . I just manage to never instal one . I did a lot of large commercial work .

I do hope the Electricians today get them out of the NEC . It will be bad for our trade in the future .

Bring back the Edison Fuse .... The best circuit protection .



Don
 
I’ve never dealt with anything residential as I’m purely industrial. But there are some comparisons to projects I’ve undertaken.

It all comes down to planning and preparation.

If the busbars have been affected by heat then breakers connected to them are liable to be compromised.
The prime objective is improve the equipment and its future reliability and minimize outage time.

You’re quibbling over the $325K capital cost difference of patching up old gear to modern replacements with a warranty?

It works out at $423 per apartment difference.
 
Tony S said:
I’ve never dealt with anything residential as I’m purely industrial. But there are some comparisons to projects I’ve undertaken.

It all comes down to planning and preparation.

If the busbars have been affected by heat then breakers connected to them are liable to be compromised.
The prime objective is improve the equipment and its future reliability and minimize outage time.

You’re quibbling over the $325K capital cost difference of patching up old gear to modern replacements with a warranty?

It works out at $423 per apartment difference.
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You are quickly forgetting the added cost of the AFCI breakers since they should be required. Then the call backs to troubleshoot the AFCI issue for almost 800 units. That price alone could be staggering.
 
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