Arc-Fault again

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hillbilly1 said:
The reason the inspector required it is because if the meter is removed for maintenance , and you are bonded on the street side, continuity would be lost on the house side.
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I work most of the time on buildings . water pipe is a least a 4" cooper pipe!!!!!
You have a lot of branch circuits bonding the water pipe system for example a DW circuits or the washer and dryers BC!!! But the key here is one inspector require it the other inspector not and when I say inspector it is only one example because I have argues with my partner too.
Please inspectors do not take my comment as something personal because it was only an example of that I can never be 100% sure of everything is correct.
 
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DARUSA said:
250.104 (B) Other Metal Piping. Where installed in or attached to a building or structure, a metal piping system(s), including gas piping, that is likely to become energized shall be bonded to the service equipment enclosure, the grounded conductor at the service, the grounding electrode conductor where of sufficient size, or the one or more grounding electrodes used. The bonding jumper(s) shall be sized in accordance with 250.122, using the rating of the circuit that is likely to energize the piping system(s). The equipment grounding conductor for the circuit that is likely to energize the piping shall be permitted to serve as the bonding means. The points of attachment of the bonding jumper(s) shall be accessible.
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Wrong part.

250.104(A) applies and read this:

(1) General. Metal water piping system(s) installed in or
attached to a building or structure shall be bonded to the
service equipment enclosure, the grounded conductor at the
service, the grounding electrode conductor where of sufficient
size, or to the one or more grounding electrodes used.
The bonding jumper(s) shall be sized in accordance with Table
250.66 except as permitted in 250.104(A)(2) and (A)(3).
 
Don't get grounding and bonding mixed up. My old house had a copper main line and galvinized pipe in the house, so where it came into the house, as Mike mentioned, there was an isolation fitting so I had to install a jumper since the house was old enough that it used only a cold water ground and then the jumper ensured that I had bonded the interior pipes.
 
cowboyjwc said:
I'm not much of a nit picker, I'll point out the nit pickey stuff and tell them not to do that or clean it up next time.

I will give the contractor his due though, he called this morning and admitted that missing the TR receptacles was a mistake on his part and also the trims on the closet lights, but I did find out that like a lot of people he mistook the word "outlet" to mean "receptacle" so he doesn't have the lights on Arc faults and he had never heard about the WR GFCI receptacles.

Of course that kind of takes us back to Dennis's comment.:)

The times are a changing and you have to keep up. I wish sometimes that I could get all of the local contractors together and we would just have a short 1/2 code update class, but that doesn't solve my problem with all of the out of towners.
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Don't you have requirements for CEU's? What do they talk about during these CEU's? Around here we need 12 hours of CEU's to be able to renew a license. 6 of those hours must be code related topics. Most of those classes I have ever gone to that meet the requirements for the 6 hours of code are mostly concerning changes from the previous code to the current code, or the upcoming code if that is not far away. I question whether 12 hours every 2 years is enough but is enough to get everyone introduced to the code changes every code cycle, whether or not they choose to learn is up to them.

DARUSA said:
I work most of the time on buildings . water pipe is a least a 4" cooper pipe!!!!!
You have a lot of branch circuits bonding the water pipe system for example a DW circuits or the washer and dryers BC!!! But the key here is one inspector require it the other inspector not and when I say inspector it is only one example because I have argues with my partner too.
Please inspectors do not take my comment as something personal because it was only an example of that I can never be 100% sure of everything is correct.
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No doubt that a lot of what you describe ends up redundantly bonding the water pipe. The NEC is not written in a way that you can take that into consideration. They want to be certain that pipe is bonded no matter what equipment is there or what changes are made to it.
 
No CEU for Contractors,
Electricians certificates yes ( Employees of Electrical contractors)

General building contractors can perform electrical and no certificated employeeds is required provided the job is not electrical only.
 
kwired said:
Don't you have requirements for CEU's? What do they talk about during these CEU's? Around here we need 12 hours of CEU's to be able to renew a license. 6 of those hours must be code related topics. Most of those classes I have ever gone to that meet the requirements for the 6 hours of code are mostly concerning changes from the previous code to the current code, or the upcoming code if that is not far away. I question whether 12 hours every 2 years is enough but is enough to get everyone introduced to the code changes every code cycle, whether or not they choose to learn is up to them.
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I'm not sure what's required for the contractors license, mine is inactive. I need 57 CEU's every three years to keep my inspectors cert current. Now I get som of those simply by being employed by a jurisdiction and I usually have well over 100 hours in that time anyway.

I do know that anytime I bring it up to contractors that it would be a good idea to send their employee's to training, all I get is that, we're not making any money if my guys are sitting in a class room. So you're right, you can't make them learn.

We've joked about it before here, it's always scary when a guy want's to argue a code requirement and he goes to his truck and pulls out his 1998 code book as reference.

Now to be fair I shouldn't just bag on contractors. I had a contractor move some outlets up that were to low, he had them at 15" to center and the new code is 15" measured to the bottom of the box and switches are max 48" measured to the top of box. He told me that he had called his buddy who is an inspector over in a nearby large jurisdiction and he was told that I didn't know what I was talking about and should read the code. I replied that one of us needed to read the code.

"That's how we've always done it" is just not a valied argument.:happysad:
 
jxofaltrds said:
Wrong part.

250.104(A) applies and read this:

(1) General. Metal water piping system(s) installed in or
attached to a building or structure shall be bonded to the
service equipment enclosure, the grounded conductor at the
service, the grounding electrode conductor where of sufficient
size, or to the one or more grounding electrodes used.
The bonding jumper(s) shall be sized in accordance with Table
250.66 except as permitted in 250.104(A)(2) and (A)(3).
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I will be honest ,The way that I
read it before was that the meter jumper is required when you terminate the EGC on the load side of the meter to prevent that if the meter is replaced or disconnected the EGC not be compromise!!! ( not interupt the path to the earth.
Now when you connect it on the line side of the meter the egc path to the earth will not be afected for the meter replacement and in that case is were 250.104b come in to play to bond the metal pipes that can likely became energize and the Equipmen grounding conductor of every appliance can meet that requirement.
guess based on all you guy says I was wrong. Good one more thing learned!!!
 
cowboyjwc said:
Don't get grounding and bonding mixed up. My old house had a copper main line and galvinized pipe in the house, so where it came into the house, as Mike mentioned, there was an isolation fitting so I had to install a jumper since the house was old enough that it used only a cold water ground and then the jumper ensured that I had bonded the interior pipes.
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For a minute forget what you think that you know and think about the difference between the two. Not to insult you but sometimes it helps me to draw it out or to make a small mockup so that I can 'see' it.

DARUSA said:
I will be honest ,The way that I
read it before was that the meter jumper is required when you terminate the EGC on the load side of the meter to prevent that if the meter is replaced or disconnected the EGC not be compromise!!! ( not interupt the path to the earth.
Now when you connect it on the line side of the meter the egc path to the earth will not be afected for the meter replacement and in that case is were 250.104b come in to play to bond the metal pipes that can likely became energize and the Equipmen grounding conductor of every appliance can meet that requirement.
guess based on all you guy says I was wrong. Good one more thing learned!!!
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They ARE water pipes NOT other metal piping. Again please try to re-think this.
 
cowboyjwc said:
We've joked about it before here, it's always scary when a guy want's to argue a code requirement and he goes to his truck and pulls out his 1998 code book as reference.
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A 1998 code book is pretty rare, probably worth a lot of money. They printed thousands of 1996 and 1999 code books not sure how many 1998 were printed:)
 
kwired said:
A 1998 code book is pretty rare, probably worth a lot of money. They printed thousands of 1996 and 1999 code books not sure how many 1998 were printed:)
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Somehow I knew that was coming. I think Cowboy has been around the block a few times and he meant it as a figure of speech.:)
 
kwired said:
A 1998 code book is pretty rare, probably worth a lot of money. They printed thousands of 1996 and 1999 code books not sure how many 1998 were printed:)
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Sorry if you live in CA there was a whole bunch of them printed. Want one? I can't let it go for less than $1000 though. Being so rare and all.
 
jxofaltrds said:
For a minute forget what you think that you know and think about the difference between the two. Not to insult you but sometimes it helps me to draw it out or to make a small mockup so that I can 'see' it.
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I assumed that he was saying that the inspector wanted him to jump from the pipe coming out of the groung to the pipe going into the house. He asked why he would have to do that since the service already had a wire attached to it. As I said my house was old enough to have only a cold water ground attached to the galvinized pipe, when I changed the water service it was changed to copper and so an isolation bushing was installed at the service. I then had to jump around the bushing, because now my house was only "bonded" and I needed to attach to the copper so that it would be "grounded".

We on the same page yet?
 
cowboyjwc said:
Sorry if you live in CA there was a whole bunch of them printed. Want one? I can't let it go for less than $1000 though. Being so rare and all.
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I just looked on my shelf and see that I have one Too a 3 ring binder model.

Hey I'll let mine go for a bargain price at $100 that's 10% of what Cowboy wants.
 
cowboyjwc said:
Ok another question, how many of you consider a laundry room as "....similar rooms or areas."?
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That one is interesting, sometimes the "laundry" is in a closet, sometimes in a garage, unfinished basement, porch, within a bathroom, or sometimes in a room pretty much dedicated for laundry. I have seen it in kitchens also.
 
cowboyjwc said:
Ok another question, how many of you consider a laundry room as "....similar rooms or areas."?
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Well I guess for those 'special' individuals that consider their pets their beloved children, and these children sleep in the laundry room, you could maybe stretch it and say it is "similar" to a dedicated bedroom, and if all their toys are in there you could say it is "similar" to a recreation room!!! :cool:

Then there are those who put their children in the dryer to sleep......... With the door open of course ;).
 
DelightedInYahweh said:
Well I guess for those 'special' individuals that consider their pets their beloved children, and these children sleep in the laundry room, you could maybe stretch it and say it is "similar" to a dedicated bedroom, and if all their toys are in there you could say it is "similar" to a recreation room!!! :cool:

Then there are those who put their children in the dryer to sleep......... With the door open of course ;).
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Not just bedrooms, Family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation rooms, closets, hallways, or similar rooms or areas.
 
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