Arc Fault Breaker problem

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gojoeba

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Anyone have a problem with Murray Arc fault breakers not passing the inspectors test when using an Ideal plug in arc fault checker?
 
AFCI/GFCI Circuit Tester

Catalog # 61-059


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SureTest? Circuit Analyzers



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Manufc. claim " Tests AFCIs for proper operation"
 
From the IAEI magazine.

AFCI Testers?Not Really

An AFCI indicator may be a nice way to determine if a particular circuit is connected to an AFCI, but it provides no definitive answer on whether an AFCI is properly working or not.

by Jim Pauley, P.E.
Click to expand...

The entire article can be seen HERE
 
From UL

If an AFCI indicator plugged into a receptacle protected by an AFCI doesn?t trip the AFCI, does that mean the AFCI protecting the circuit is defective
and should be replaced?
No, an AFCI that does not trip when used with an AFCI indicator does not necessarily mean that the AFCI is defective and needs to be replaced. AFCI indicators on the market today are not AFCI testers, they are listed by UL as AFCI indicators
under one of two product categories including Outlet Circuit Testers (QCYU) located on page 91 of the 2004 White Book or Measuring,
Testing and Signal Generation Equipment (PICQ), which can be located on UL?s Online Certification PICQ at the category code search.
ese AFCI indicators provide an indication if a selected receptacle is protected by an AFCI. ese indicators
are generally used to reduce the number of trips to the panelboard location to push the test button on the AFCI circuit breaker. AFCI indicators
produce a waveform that mimics
an arc and because each AFCI manufacturer has a unique way of detecting an arc, every AFCI indicator
may not trip every AFCI. When in doubt, push the test button on the AFCI circuit breaker to be sure.
Please note the only accepted method for testing an AFCI is to push the ?test? button provided as an integral part of the AFCI itself.
AFCI indicators are provided with instructions that state the proper way to ?test? an AFCI breaker.
AFCI indicators are required to be marked on the product or provided
in the user instructions as follows:

?CAUTION: AFCIs recognize characteristics unique to arcing, and AFCI indicators produce characteristics
that mimic some forms of arcing. Because of this the indicator may give a false indication that the AFCI is not functioning properly. If this occurs, recheck
the operation of the AFCI using the test and reset buttons. e AFCI button test function will demonstrate proper operation.?
Click to expand...
 
gojoeba said:
Anyone have a problem with Murray Arc fault breakers not passing the inspectors test when using an Ideal plug in arc fault checker?
Click to expand...


I didn't have a problem with a "tester", but I did have a problem with an inspector that thought he had actually had a tester.
 
I happen to believe that there are most certainly such things as AFCI testers. I have read the posted articles that claim there are not and do not buy it.

As with all test equipment there will always be those that are more expensive and better quality testers and those that are cheap.

Consider that the design of AFCIs themselves are changing over time as has the GFCI. The AFCIs contain firmware, as do the Ideal testers mentioned. As my posted reference said, there is a firmware upgrade to the test equipment.
( I am only trying to make a point, I do not make any claims about Ideals equipment)

You can bet there have been firmware updates to newer AFCIs as their design matured/s over time.
Manufacturers of test equipment will catch up over time as well.

Unless of course you believe that an arc signature cannot be duplicated electronically?
Do you believe that manufacturers of AFCIs do not apply external test apparatus to their product? Or perhaps you believe that they only use "actual electric arcs" to test their equipment?

With todays modern electronics an arc can be accurately simulated - and it is highly desireable to do so from the standpoint of repeatability in testing.

The manufacturers claim they can detect actual arc signatures. They do this with firmware algorithms. Why should we not be able to reverse that process to build a tester? We should probably just take it on faith that they are the only ones who know how to properly test their products :wink:

Of course arc simulation is not as simple as putting a 15K ohm resistor from hot to neutral (partially around the sensing core) like the GFCI does to test itself. The key is to make an AFCI tester that is both of high quality and affordable -being that it is much more complex device.

AFCIs do not come cheap do they. Why should their testers :grin:

I am still curious for someone to explain exactly what the test button inside of the AFCI does? Exactly how much does pushing that button actually test? Does it simulate an arc signature to exercise the current sensing coils? I wish these articles that claim the only right way to test is to use the test button would explain in detail exactly why it is that the test button is so much better:rolleyes: Or the only way to go.
 
FLA:

This has come up before here and results are always the same. Most all in this forum believe the "only" true way to test a GFCI/AFCI is to use the TEST button, if that works, it's good.

I wonder, don't the same people use a tester or shall I call it a indicator on a circuit after they flip the CB OFF? They don't trust the switch, yet trust a TEST button to operate correctly??
 
wptski said:
FLA:

This has come up before here and results are always the same. Most all in this forum believe the "only" true way to test a GFCI/AFCI is to use the TEST button, if that works, it's good.
Click to expand...


And the facts back us up.
 
electricmanscott said:
Post # 8 is good enough for me.
Click to expand...
That doesn't say squat about what the the TEST button does. If you don't rely on a CB switch, why in the world would you rely on a TEST button?:-?

Just from what anybody can read, a AFCI is supposed to trip under several conditions, maybe more, who knows right now. Do you think that a AFCI can monitor all those conditions and its TEST button will simulate all those conditions too?? Do all that for the price they are selling at now?

A GFCI is simpler, where a condition can be simulated easier with a TEST button.
 
UL Affirms AFCI Test Button As Only Method to Test AFCI Breaker

Underwriters Laboratories (UL) has recently written a concise letter which explains that AFCI indicators do not test AFCI circuit breakers. Instead, they simulate an arc in an attempt to trip them also noting that AFCI indicators may not trip all AFCI devices. UL has affirmed only the ?Test? button should be used for proper testing of the AFCI circuit breaker.
The letter is posted on the UL website at:
http://www.ul.com/regulators/afci/index.cfm
to share with those that may benefit from further information on the AFCI indicator.
UL will also e-mail the letter to a few thousand inspectors and publish it in a UL Code Authority mailing to nearly 12,000 inspectors and others in the industry.
Click to expand...
http://www.squared.com/us/applications/residential.nsf/LookupFiles/RetailinkApril2005.pdf/$file/RetailinkApril2005.pdf
[Dated: April 2005]

I guess the OP's EI wasn't on the "A list" :D

In a more recent letter:
AFCI TESTERS & UL COMMENTS
Thursday June 12, 2008
Attached is a letter, dated March 21, 2005, from UL in regards to AFCI testers.
Many individuals previously purchased AFCI testers only to find that even though UL listed some of them they were not recognized as legitimate AFCI testers.
Many functional Branch Circuit AFCI breakers appeared to fail the test because the tester would not trip the AFCI.
Now that the Combination AFCI's are out, we are hearing that many individuals using these same testers, are failing "good" AFCI's because the AFCI tester will not trip the AFCI.
Apparently these AFCI testers will trip the new Combination type AFCI, even less frequently than the old Branch Circuit type of AFCI.
In the attached letter from UL it is noted that the only recognized test method is to push the test button that is provided as an integral part of the AFCI.
If the AFCI does not trip then the AFCI is defective and must be replaced
Click to expand...
http://www.jupiter.fl.us/buildingdivision/upload/AFCI-Testers-and-UL-Letter.pdf
[Dated: June 2008; references letter dated: March 2005]


BTW....are the combo devices out yet?
 
wptski said:
That doesn't say squat about what the the TEST button does. If you don't rely on a CB switch, why in the world would you rely on a TEST button?:-?

Just from what anybody can read, a AFCI is supposed to trip under several conditions, maybe more, who knows right now. Do you think that a AFCI can monitor all those conditions and its TEST button will simulate all those conditions too?? Do all that for the price they are selling at now?

A GFCI is simpler, where a condition can be simulated easier with a TEST button.
Click to expand...


Don't know, don't care. I'll let you worry about what the test button does or doesn't do.

What I do know is that if you are an inspector, don't come into my job, or any job, with your phantom AFCI "Tester" and think that you are going to pass or fail my installation based on the results or lack thereof from this "tester".
 
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