Arc fault breaker

[Curt Fitz]

In a recent inspection, the inspector stated that arc fault breakers were needed. In what situation would an arc fault breaker be required in a residential setting ?

 

[Dsg319]

In a recent inspection, the inspector stated that arc fault breakers were needed. In what situation would an arc fault breaker be required in a residential setting ?

Basically all the living quarters of the house.

Check 210.12

Are you on 2020?

 

[qcroanoke]

Was it a home inspector for a property sale? If the house was built before arc fault was required he can only suggest not require arc faults

 

[Jraef]

Was it a home inspector for a property sale? If the house was built before arc fault was required he can only suggest not require arc faults

And this scenario seems to be happening a lot with Home Inspectors lately. I’ve been hearing this a lot lately because I have two friends who are realtors and they keep getting this from HIs hired by buyers. Now their colleagues are calling to ask me too. Someone I think offered HIs a class (maybe a Zoom class during COVID?) and spewed this as gospel.

 

[Curt Fitz]

Was it a home inspector for a property sale? If the house was built before arc fault was required he can only suggest not require arc faults

Basically all the living quarters of the house.

Check 210.12

Are you on 2020?

Thanks for your help. 210.12 clarified the situation for me.

 

[tom baker]

AFCI breakers have required for over 20 years by the NEC, but where and the type have changed since first required.
And the same happened with GFCIs after they were introduced in 1972, ie GFCI requirements have increased every code cycle

 

[James L]

In a recent inspection, the inspector stated that arc fault breakers were needed. In what situation would an arc fault breaker be required in a residential setting ?

If it's new wiring, you need to know what code cycle you're on. Missouri has no statewide adoption. Instead, each municipality adopts (and potentially amends) whichever cycle they want.

I don't venture over to Columbia, but I can tell you a bit of what's near Kansas City:
Kansas City - 2017 without amendments

Parkville - 2011 without amendments

Jackson County - 2014 without amendments

Lee's Summit - 2017 I'm unsure of all amendments, but they've required main disconnect outside for 15 years or so.

Gladstone - just found out yesterday they have adopted 2020 but they have amended out all the extended GFCI requirements, and have amended out all arc fault requirements since the first one ('99 or '02)

Bottom line is you need to find out from the exact municipality which cycle they're on, and if they have any amendments.

 

[kwired]

If it's new wiring, you need to know what code cycle you're on. Missouri has no statewide adoption. Instead, each municipality adopts (and potentially amends) whichever cycle they want.

I don't venture over to Columbia, but I can tell you a bit of what's near Kansas City:
Kansas City - 2017 without amendments

Parkville - 2011 without amendments

Jackson County - 2014 without amendments

Lee's Summit - 2017 I'm unsure of all amendments, but they've required main disconnect outside for 15 years or so.

Gladstone - just found out yesterday they have adopted 2020 but they have amended out all the extended GFCI requirements, and have amended out all arc fault requirements since the first one ('99 or '02)

Bottom line is you need to find out from the exact municipality which cycle they're on, and if they have any amendments.

sounds like a mess if you ever work in more than one jurisdiction. Bad enough to keep track of differences when crossing a state line.

 

[James L]

sounds like a mess if you ever work in more than one jurisdiction. Bad enough to keep track of differences when crossing a state line.

It can be a mess.
But I guess it's not bad once you get used to it
It's the same in Kansas.

Between both states, there are about 175 municipalities in the KC metro area.

I work in 25 or 30 of them

 

[4x4dually]

In a recent inspection, the inspector stated that arc fault breakers were needed. In what situation would an arc fault breaker be required in a residential setting ?

https://www.mikeholt.com/files/PDF/_AFCI_requirement_page-2014.pdf

 

[ramsy]

..spewed this as gospel.

New plugs missing AFCI are rather obvious.

Anyone can report it under 2011 NEC adoption or later, per 406.4(D)4

 

[Jraef]

New plugs missing AFCI are rather obvious.

Anyone can report it under 2011 NEC adoption or later, per 406.4(D)4

But if this is a Home Inspector for a real estate transaction, why would they ass-u-me that the receptacles are replacements? There is nothing in the NEC requiring EXISTING devices to be replaced if they met the Code requirements at the time they were installed. 406.4(D) refers to IF they are replaced.

 

[ramsy]

But if this is a Home Inspector for a real estate transaction, why would they ass-u-me that the receptacles are replacements? There is nothing in the NEC requiring EXISTING devices to be replaced if they met the Code requirements at the time they were installed. 406.4(D) refers to IF they are replaced.

No Assumption Needed for Replacements

* Square vs Round
When Decora or square plugs must match GFCI's in kitchen, bath, laundry, or garage, and stand out against existing rounded standard plugs in other rooms.

* Remodel Rooms
When marble countertops, with modern floors, cabinets, and plugs don't match the rest of the house. Owners proudly admit rooms were renovated with new plugs.

* Inspector Plug Tester
When plug tester shows no grounding on most 3-prong plugs, replacement monkey business is obvious. If asked, people have no reason to lie about replaced plugs.

* DIY Electrical
Homeowners often mess with electrical, with any number of odd replacement plugs that won't match the rest of the house, and they gladly say so.

These events are typical, AFCI's are not.

 

[kwired]

No Assumption Needed for Replacements

* Square vs Round
When Decora or square plugs must match GFCI's in kitchen, bath, laundry, or garage, and stand out against existing rounded standard plugs in other rooms.

* Remodel Rooms
When marble countertops, with modern floors, cabinets, and plugs don't match the rest of the house. Owners proudly admit rooms were renovated with new plugs.

* Inspector Plug Tester
When plug tester shows no grounding on most 3-prong plugs, replacement monkey business is obvious. If asked, people have no reason to lie about replaced plugs.

* DIY Electrical
Homeowners often mess with electrical, with any number of odd replacement plugs that won't match the rest of the house, and they gladly say so.

These events are typical, AFCI's are not.

I can agree other than I must say Decora receptacles were around before AFCI requirements were introduced into code, and even considering that it was another 3 or 4 code cycles before they were required for kitchens, so there is some wiggle room on those items as to whether or not they may have been compliant when installed.

On top of all that a HI at most should only be throwing a question out there on his report that AFCI protection might be necessary and not stating it definitely is required.

 

[ramsy]

Decora receptacles were around before AFCI requirements..
..report that AFCI protection might be necessary and not stating it definitely is required.

Since it increases re-sale value, most realtors make a point to show & tell the renovations.

Anyone that finds newer plugs can ask seller or realtor, when plugs were replaced, before documenting AFCI requirements per locally adopted 406.4(D)4.

 

[ramsy]

On top of all that a HI at most should only be throwing a question out there on his report

This doesn't require a home inspector.

In my state, anyone can use google maps or aerial serveys to follow remodelers, access fuse box from the street, and document missing AFCI's for local code enforcement & property insurances, with enough re-work to bid for a lifetime.

 

[kwired]

This doesn't require a home inspector.

In my state, anyone can use google maps or aerial serveys to follow remodelers, access fuse box from the street, and document missing AFCI's for local code enforcement & property insurances, with enough re-work to bid for a lifetime.

Google maps shows items in my yard that haven't been there for at least five years. Also doesn't have street view option for that location.

I know of one spot not too far away that has a pin on the map and a business name I never heard of. I know there is nothing there in the real world but corn field/bean field and hasn't been anything for years. Was an old farmhouse close by and on other side of road maybe 20-25 years ago.

 

[ramsy]

Google maps shows items in my yard that haven't been there for at least five years..

Google has no respect for your home town. My area is updated at least once a year.

Earth

See maps satellite in real time

google-earth.gosur.com

It zooms close enough to see whats in the bed of truck without street view.

Farmers in rural areas may use other real-time satellite services for crop management?

 

[Sea Nile]

On the subject of Google maps, you can request that your home be blurred out from the street view. Instructions can be found easily by searching in any search engine so I won't try to explain how. But it's easy, and good to know if you value the futile struggle to maintain the illusion of privacy in todays age of everybody thinking the have the default right to know everything about you because you don't have time to read the fine print or the hassle of finding every hidden setting to change the settings to OFF.

 

[LarryFine]

Google has no respect for your home town. My area is updated at least once a year.

Earth

See maps satellite in real time

google-earth.gosur.com

It zooms close enough to see whats in the bed of truck without street view.

Farmers in rural areas may use other real-time satellite services for crop management?

If it's"real time" why is the traffic stationary?