Arc Fault Breakers on all bedrooms.

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sparky_magoo said:
Ideal makes a sure test AFCI tester that simulates an arcing fault. It works great. It also displays true RMS voltage. It will put a 15 or 20 amp load on the ckt. under test and display the voltage drop. It is a wonderful instrument. Sa a serviceman, I use mine almost daily.
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According to UL there is no such device as an AFCI tester.

What you have is an AFCI indicator and it may not trip some brands of AFCIs that are in fact working correctly.

IMO you got ripped off.
 
According to UL there is no such device as an AFCI tester.

What you have is an AFCI indicator and it may not trip some brands of AFCIs that are in fact working correctly.

IMO you got ripped off.[/quote]

The tester is worth the price for it's ability to put 15 & 20 amp loads on a ckt. and measure the voltage drop. It enables me to quikly find weak connections. As for the AFCI test, I don't actually use that function. If I want to know if a receptacle is on a AFCI breaker, I put my wiggy from hot or nuetral to ground. This trips the GFCI part of the AFCI breaker.
 
Maine has adopted AFCI's to be placed on all receptacles in bedrooms. Other outlets that are not receptacles do not require AFCI protection.
 
dunriteman said:
SC inspectors are making me put my smoke detectors on a arc-fault circuit because they are inside the bedrooms. lets say the arc-fault trips on the smoke circuit! what brings this to the home owners attention?
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If they have battery back-up, the constant chirping shoud be a clue.
 
If they have battery back-up, the constant chirping shoud be a clue.
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As long as they are not on vacation when the battery goes down. I still like ark fault breakers though. Saved my dykes once. Who knows, maybe they can get the bugs out before 2008.
 
Who knows, maybe they can get the bugs out before 2008.
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I don't have much confidence it that. The currently available AFCIs still do not fucntion as promised in the original proposals...for the 1996 code.
Don
 
ramdiesel3500 said:
The reason I was given for Indiana not requiring AFCI's is that there is no good way (as of yet) to test them!?!? (true or not, that is what I was told!)
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same with AR. I agree also -if (fyi) you dont know what you have whats the use of having it as the "cutting edge of code required crap" ??? proven CB's against something new you cannot TEST for gods sake!! give me a reason....lmao (not in my house). I would rather have good quality wiring and cbs....maybe the zinscos and federal pacifics wont melt with my arc faults... (dont buy if you dont have to IMHO).
 
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tbonse said:
dunriteman, I feel your pain. I too am in SC and know about having to use an AFCI on the smoke detector circuit just because it has a device attached within a bedroom, however you may be able to get your inspector to drop this requirement by citing the NEC (NFPA 70) 2005 (although the 2002 is the currently enforced version) section 760.21.

760.21 NPLFA Circuit Power Source Requirements.
The power source of nonpower-limited fire alarm circuits shall comply with Chapters 1 through 4, and the output voltage shall not be more than 600 volts, nominal. These circuits shall not be supplied through ground-fault circuit interrupters or arc-fault circuit interrupters.
FPN: See 210.8(A)(5), Exception No. 3, for receptacles in dwelling-unit unfinished basements that supply power for fire alarm systems.

The 210.8(A)(5) exception 3, just indicates that the circuit supplying the fire alarm panel cannot be considered the required circuit for the unfinished basement outlet(s) in exchange for not requiring GFCI and dedicating the circuit to the fire alarm panel.

May need to see if 760.21 is present in 2002 edition of NEC. Note that the AHJ may have an ammendment over-riding 760.21 as AFCI's are still a topic of contention in many localities.

Hope this helps.
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I like what you're trying to do, find a way not to put the smokes on an AFCI, but it won't work. We've tried that route during inspectors conferences and they tell us it doesn't apply to house smokes.

The Handbook page 1103 commentary for 760.21 says, "This requirement does not apply to single- or multiple-station smoke alarms. Single- and multiple-station smoke alarms are not supplied through a non-power-limited fire alarm circuit. Smoke alarms in new construction are required by NFPA 72, National Fire Alarm Code, to have a backup battery that will supply power in the event that the branch circuit power is interrupted due to the operation of a GFCI or AFCI device."

You might get an inspector that "forgets" to check the breaker type for the power supply to the smokes. Or you could be like some contractors that put the bedroom lights and the smoke detectors on a separate circuit from the plugs. I would guess that something happens to the light/smoke AFCI after the Final is done. But I wouldn't know anything about that.

David
 
iwire said:
According to UL there is no such device as an AFCI tester.

What you have is an AFCI indicator and it may not trip some brands of AFCIs that are in fact working correctly.

IMO you got ripped off.
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My Ideal trips all brands of AFCIs.
I've got the big 3 prong plug-in one with 3 buttons, GFCI, AFCI, and neutral.
My previous Ideal, the one with the 2 buttons [GFCI and AFCI], didn't work on most SquareD breakers.

It beats walking downstairs to trip the AFCIs and then back upstairs to check if all the power in the bedrooms are off.

David
 
One of the problems with AFCI "testers" is the impedance of the circuit. The AFCI must see a fault of at least 75 amps before it will open the circuit for a parallel arcing fault. In some cases, as a result of circuit impedance, it is not possible to draw 75 amps at the outlet. Note this same issue occurs with actual faults as well as with the "testers".
Don
 
Is the problems with arc-fault breakers really that wide spread, I've had two calls with problems, one it was a variable speed vacume cleaner when it was started on low spead, starting on high speed was not a problem, the other was a nail piercing the nm and shorting the gnd and nuetral, this would never had been known if it wasn't for the arc-fault breaker. I have had calls when someone would start a heavy piece of equipment it sometimes tripped the af breaker but then again I see equipment like this trip a regular breaker quite often depending on distance and voltage drop, Putting them in the field is the only real way of finding out if any or what some of the problems will be, you can't test for every possible problem in a lab. Time will tell if there worth the aggrivation we may incounter if they save even one life. GFCI's and Smoke detectors weren't perfect when they 1st came on the market with alot of whining and complaining but how many lives have they saved.
 
Pierre,
the new type of AFCI is supposed to sense 5 amp faults, do you think this will help in AFCIs performing as was told to us a few years ago?
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That item is not on the market at this time, even though it will be required 1/1/08. I have no confidence that they will have a workable product on the market at that time. Remeber that there is not an AFCI on the market that will do what was promised in the original AFCI proposals for the 1996 code. That was some 13 years ago, and they still can't make a device do what they promised that they had done back then.
Don
 
Sure would like to see some documentation on this as I agree with David's post that "Smoke Alarms" (the proper UL classification of the line volt detectors used in homes) are not power limited fire alarm systems.
 
Just another note were not allowed to install the smoke alarms on a dedicated circuit, by putting it on a circuit used for other lights and devices the idea is that it would make it an inconvenence to just turn the smoke alarm circuit off.
 
who is not allowed to put smokes on a dedicated circuit?

in my city we are REQUIRED to put them on dedicated circuit


its like putting a dedicated recep/circuit in every room to plug in your CELL PHONE CHARGER

ridiculous
 
wireman3736 said:
Just another note were not allowed to install the smoke alarms on a dedicated circuit, by putting it on a circuit used for other lights and devices the idea is that it would make it an inconvenence to just turn the smoke alarm circuit off.
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An inconvienence Ha !!!!.I have lost count of the homes in the past I have gone to and have found an entire houses SD`S,sitting on a counter top when all it was is one smoke detector chirping once and awhile.People will go out of thier way to endanger themselves and just go totally out of thier way to do so.So the rational of it would be an inconvience is well redundent
 
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