Arc Fault Breakers

[melanconelectric]

I have two bedrooms in a new house with tripping afci's. I have completely pulled all devices out and fixtures down and checked for continuity...NOTHING. Digital meter shows resistance, no continuity, but resistance. Every piece of romex has same amount of resistance, new piece of wire off a 1000' spool of Southwire's 12/2 nmb also has same resistance. Cutler Hammer BR AFCI's will not hold bedrooms. The smallest load trips. All connections are tight, no grounds and neutrals touching in boxes. Should I try first, another meter, then a Seimens afci, or some other compatible breaker??? Are Cutler Hammer afci's really sensitive?:-?

 

[George Stolz]

Slow down.

Digital meter shows resistance, no continuity, but resistance.

Measured between what and what?

What do you mean by "resistance, no continuity, resistance"? I perceive continuity as the proportional inverse of resistance. So if there is a measured resistance, then there would be some continuity. Do you mean to say that there is not a resistance of zero ohms, but a higher resistance?

Every piece of romex has same amount of resistance, new piece of wire off a 1000' spool of Southwire's 12/2 nmb also has same resistance. Cutler Hammer BR AFCI's will not hold bedrooms. The smallest load trips. All connections are tight, no grounds and neutrals touching in boxes. Should I try first, another meter, then a Seimens afci, or some other compatible breaker??? Are Cutler Hammer afci's really sensitive?:-?

What was connected to the circuits when the problem began? What kind of lights? Was the unit occupied? What appliances were plugged in?

To beat Marc to the punch, do you have a megger?

(I don't.

)

 

[Sierrasparky]

Are you sure the correct white wire is on the breaker nuetral?


I would start at the nearest outlet to the Breaker. Remove the load side connections. If the breaker holds then add back one section of the run at a time until the problem comes back.

 

[melanconelectric]

Slow down.
Measured between what and what?

What do you mean by "resistance, no continuity, resistance"? I perceive continuity as the proportional inverse of resistance. So if there is a measured resistance, then there would be some continuity. Do you mean to say that there is not a resistance of zero ohms, but a higher resistance?


What was connected to the circuits when the problem began? What kind of lights? Was the unit occupied? What appliances were plugged in?

To beat Marc to the punch, do you have a megger?

(I don't.

)

No zero resistance, normally my meter will show open but this shows resistance but no continuity and no i dont have megger and dont know how it works either

 

[melanconelectric]

Are you sure the correct white wire is on the breaker nuetral?


I would start at the nearest outlet to the Breaker. Remove the load side connections. If the breaker holds then add back one section of the run at a time until the problem comes back.

All wiring is correct and yes tried that too, the smallest load of anykind trips... at one point the ckt held the ceiling fan and light kit with the closet light and no load on the receps but that never came back after I closed up the switch box

 

[George Stolz]

What resistance does your meter read, and what conductors are you testing to see this reading? Please, be thorough with your response.

 

[melanconelectric]

Slow down.


Measured between what and what?

What do you mean by "resistance, no continuity, resistance"? I perceive continuity as the proportional inverse of resistance. So if there is a measured resistance, then there would be some continuity. Do you mean to say that there is not a resistance of zero ohms, but a higher resistance?


What was connected to the circuits when the problem began? What kind of lights? Was the unit occupied? What appliances were plugged in?

To beat Marc to the punch, do you have a megger?

(I don't.

)

No appliances, new house never occupied, just turned power on

 

[melanconelectric]

What resistance does your meter read, and what conductors are you testing to see this reading? Please, be thorough with your response.

Black to white and i'll get back to you with exact readings tommorow, sorry

 

[Fulthrotl]

All wiring is correct and yes tried that too, the smallest load of anykind trips... at one point the ckt held the ceiling fan and light kit with the closet light and no load on the receps but that never came back after I closed up the switch box

this is gonna sound stupid, but take a drill motor, and make up a cord
cap with pigtails, and hook it to the afci breaker directly. no field wiring.
just use the drill motor to load test the afci's. check all your afci's that
way.... if they are good, then hook up the entire afci circuit, and see if it holds.

turn off every circuit but the one being tested, then move to the first
plug, and check to see if it holds... the afci is looking for an arcing issue,
with load connected, and as you say the circuit doesn't trip until there
is a load on it, move the load plug to plug until you find the cause of
the trip.

if all works well, then turn on the other circuits, and see if it holds... if
it doesn't, you've got shared neutrals, i'm guessing.

ideal makes a couple of testers that might help, but they are proud of
them... the cheap one is $160, and the good one is about $290

here is some information on them...

http://www.idealindustries.com/prodDetail.do?prodId=61-059&div=1&l1=circuit_analyzers

and the pros and cons of dropping some change on one of these...

http://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarc...I-Testers-versus-AFCI-Indicators~20050728.php

 

[quogueelectric]

2008 is going to be a VERY UGLY year. Already running into problems where more than 40% of house is reno must bring entire house up to current code. Now how can you epect me to arcfault all 40 years of existing preexisting nonconforming hack brotherinlaw trunkslaming friend who has messed with the wiring in someones home harry homeowner not excluded. How can you expect me to be responsible for bringing the entire house up to current code without rewiring the entire house. You cant arcfault crap should be a country song. Just before the girlfriend comes back the lights should trip.

 

[danickstr]

For those who do not take the old wire to arcfault as T & M, I hope you are ready to work cheap.

 

[Fulthrotl]

2008 is going to be a VERY UGLY year. Already running into problems where more than 40% of house is reno must bring entire house up to current code. Now how can you epect me to arcfault all 40 years of existing preexisting nonconforming hack brotherinlaw trunkslaming friend who has messed with the wiring in someones home harry homeowner not excluded. How can you expect me to be responsible for bringing the entire house up to current code without rewiring the entire house. You cant arcfault crap should be a country song. Just before the girlfriend comes back the lights should trip.

how now, brown cow?

time and material, or $14,317 for a 3 bedroom 2 bath house, and exclude
the drywall patching.

and if it's a nice old house, a service upgrade as well.....

oh, nevermind... just scrape it down to dirt, and start over.....:smile:

randy

-ps.... the girl in the C/W song doesn't come home, she just makes bail.....

 

[ptonsparky]

Are you sure the correct white wire is on the breaker nuetral?


I would start at the nearest outlet to the Breaker. Remove the load side connections. If the breaker holds then add back one section of the run at a time until the problem comes back.

Good point.

Did you connect the branch circuit white wire to the breaker? No MWBC allowed.

 

[ElectricianJeff]

I have two bedrooms in a new house with tripping afci's. I have completely pulled all devices out and fixtures down and checked for continuity...NOTHING. Digital meter shows resistance, no continuity, but resistance. Every piece of romex has same amount of resistance, new piece of wire off a 1000' spool of Southwire's 12/2 nmb also has same resistance. Cutler Hammer BR AFCI's will not hold bedrooms. The smallest load trips. All connections are tight, no grounds and neutrals touching in boxes. Should I try first, another meter, then a Seimens afci, or some other compatible breaker??? Are Cutler Hammer afci's really sensitive?:-?

I had this exact same problem on the first AFCI breaker I ever installed. It would trip with the slightest of load.

Bottom line was I had installed the circuit neutral to the neutral bar instead of the breaker. It pays to read the directions.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

2008 is going to be a VERY UGLY year. Already running into problems where more than 40% of house is reno must bring entire house up to current code. Now how can you epect me to arcfault all 40 years of existing preexisting nonconforming hack brotherinlaw trunkslaming friend who has messed with the wiring in someones home harry homeowner not excluded. How can you expect me to be responsible for bringing the entire house up to current code without rewiring the entire house. You cant arcfault crap should be a country song. Just before the girlfriend comes back the lights should trip.

NYS changed the % requirement for upgrading houses if so much work was performed.
Anyone telling you that you need to upgrade based on a percentage is still referencing the '03 NYS codes. NY has been on the '07 code cycle since January 1 of '08. There is no percentage involved in determining bringing the building up to current codes.

We are now using Appendix J.
Here is the intent as written in the RCNYS-07



"AJ101.2 Intent.
The purpose of these provisions is to encourage the continued use or reuse of legally existing buildings and structures."


So, there is no need to upgrade the existing wiring as you have stated. Appendix J has been completely revised and it has been done so to give relief to building owners, so they are ENCOURAGED to do more work on their buildings without being "pillaged" by the cost of rewiring their entire building.

The Arc Fault requirement in NYS is not for existing work, it is for NEW construction.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

Black to white and i'll get back to you with exact readings tommorow, sorry

Are your AFCi protected circuits installed from a subpanel?
The issue you are describing directs my thoughts that you have some kind of Neutral to EGC connection.

As has been mentioned, try the circuit breakers tied into a separate circuit to see if they hold.

 

[melanconelectric]

All wiring is correct, however I found a neutral to ground fault between two receptacles. So, one bedroom down, one to go. I did find out why I was showing resistance with no continuity...I was touching the leads, one in one hand and one in the other! Go figure? Tomorrow I will start from scratch in the other bedroom and let yall know what I find.

 

[quogueelectric]

NYS changed the % requirement for upgrading houses if so much work was performed.
Anyone telling you that you need to upgrade based on a percentage is still referencing the '03 NYS codes. NY has been on the '07 code cycle since January 1 of '08. There is no percentage involved in determining bringing the building up to current codes.

We are now using Appendix J.
Here is the intent as written in the RCNYS-07



"AJ101.2 Intent.
The purpose of these provisions is to encourage the continued use or reuse of legally existing buildings and structures.


So, there is no need to upgrade the existing wiring as you have stated. Appendix J has been completely revised and it has been done so to give relief to building owners, so they are ENCOURAGED to do more work on their buildings without being "pillaged" by the cost of rewiring their entire building.

The Arc Fault requirement in NYS is not for existing work, it is for NEW construction.

Thank you Pierre this was priceless!!

 

[Fulthrotl]

ideal makes a couple of testers that might help, but they are proud of
them... the cheap one is $160, and the good one is about $290

here is some information on them...

http://www.idealindustries.com/prodDetail.do?prodId=61-059&div=1&l1=circuit_analyzers

and the pros and cons of dropping some change on one of these...

http://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarc...I-Testers-versus-AFCI-Indicators~20050728.php

it's pretty bad when you start quoting yourself, but it's come to that.

i did a little more research on the ideal 61-165 suretest... it is a pretty
slick device. there is no way to hide from it, either.

here's why i popped for it.... it'll find false grounds within 15' upstream
of a device, without taking the circuit down. i've got a building to clear
the neutral faults from. this is going to make that a whole lot easier.

it'll also do real time voltage drop at 12, 15, and 20 amps

it'll measure bolted fault current available at that point.
don't even ask me how that works. maybe zog knows.

it'll measure impedance on all three wires, telling you which one
is funky.

it'll test gfci's and tell you how many milliseconds and how many milliamps
it tripped at.

so, i stick it in the bathroom plug, and it tells me:

that it's wired correctly.
that it's 121.9 rms volts hot to neutral
that there is .1 volts floating on the ground
that the peak voltage is 172.8 volts rms
that the frequency is 60.0 hz
that the voltage drop at 12 amps is 2.9%, and available voltage is 117.9
volts rms at that load.
that the voltage drop at 15 amps is 3.7% and available voltage is 116.8
volts rms at that load.
that the voltage drop at 20 amps is 4.9% and available voltage is 114.6
volts rms at that load.
the bolted fault current available at that point is 580 amps
impedance on the hot wire is .17 ohms
impedance on the neutral wire is .12 ohms.
that the GFCI trips in 149 ms @ 7.2 ma.

now, for the sucky part..... the living room plug has 22% voltage
drop at 20 amps, and the hot wire has an impedance of 4 ohms.
that tells me that when olga plugs in the vacuum, i have 16 amps
flowing thru a 4 ohm load.... how much heat does that generate again?
hm. P=I2*r...... perfect. a 1,000 watt wirenut....

maybe it isn't the field wiring... maybe it's the prince of darkness
zinsco panel..... perfect.
i've got a bad connection somewhere to find.... :-(

randy

 

[alfiesauce]

Man I'd love to see that toy punched into an old nob and tube home with the ground tagged off of some random copper pipe.