dotman
New member
- Location
- North Dakota
According to the latest NEC what are the circuits requiring arc fault breakers and installation guidelines?
arc fault circuit breakers
- Thread starter dotman
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bphgravity
Senior Member
- Location
- Florida
Re: arc fault circuit breakers
What Jason has stated is only partially correct. The entire branch circuit to dwelling unit bedrooms must be protected, not just the outlets. Outlets include any point utilization equipment can be connected. This means from the supply to the last device and all wiring in between. 210.12(B)
What Jason has stated is only partially correct. The entire branch circuit to dwelling unit bedrooms must be protected, not just the outlets. Outlets include any point utilization equipment can be connected. This means from the supply to the last device and all wiring in between. 210.12(B)
hurk27
Senior Member
- Location
- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Re: arc fault circuit breakers
Yes this means any place that electrical current can be connected to electrical equipment for use. this would mean that all lights, smoke detectors, receptacles, and or room air conditioners that use 120 volts.
bphgravity
Senior Member
- Location
- Florida
Re: arc fault circuit breakers
I never stated outlets only include recpetacles. I clearly stated what outlets include. What my point is, the wiring to the bedrooms must also be included and any other devices or outlets on that circuit not in the bedroom. This is the main reason AFCI recptacles haven't made it to the market. GFCI's unlike AFCI's are only required at the equipment to be served verses the entire branch-circuit. Except for some exceptions of course.
I never stated outlets only include recpetacles. I clearly stated what outlets include. What my point is, the wiring to the bedrooms must also be included and any other devices or outlets on that circuit not in the bedroom. This is the main reason AFCI recptacles haven't made it to the market. GFCI's unlike AFCI's are only required at the equipment to be served verses the entire branch-circuit. Except for some exceptions of course.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: arc fault circuit breakers
Please give me an example of an outlet that has a voltage and current rating.
Please give me an example of an outlet that has a voltage and current rating.
Don
hurk27
Senior Member
- Location
- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Re: arc fault circuit breakers
Jason Sorry about adding to your post as I was thinking that you were not sure about the requirment.
And Don that is a good question as I allways be told that it is the circuit feeding the outlets that determends the current of the outlets?
Could this be a misprint?
Jason Sorry about adding to your post as I was thinking that you were not sure about the requirment.
And Don that is a good question as I allways be told that it is the circuit feeding the outlets that determends the current of the outlets?
Could this be a misprint?
bphgravity
Senior Member
- Location
- Florida
Re: arc fault circuit breakers
I still feel only stating the outlets need to be protected is misleading. 210.12 clearly states "all branch circuits that supply....". Just stating the outlets doesn't necessarily cover the wiring to the bedroom. If that portion of the code was not included, one could conclude that a device or AFCI protected equipment could be installed at the outlet location. Just because there not any AFCI receptacles now, doesn't mean there won't be any available next week.
I still feel only stating the outlets need to be protected is misleading. 210.12 clearly states "all branch circuits that supply....". Just stating the outlets doesn't necessarily cover the wiring to the bedroom. If that portion of the code was not included, one could conclude that a device or AFCI protected equipment could be installed at the outlet location. Just because there not any AFCI receptacles now, doesn't mean there won't be any available next week.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: arc fault circuit breakers
I knew what you where getting at BPH, I thought it made sense to make it clear that the wiring was included.
BPH, I have never seen you post your name, calling you BPH seems impersonal as you are here a lot, like myself.
If you want, you can change what's displayed in the location box on your profile.
I knew what you where getting at BPH, I thought it made sense to make it clear that the wiring was included.
BPH, I have never seen you post your name, calling you BPH seems impersonal as you are here a lot, like myself.
If you want, you can change what's displayed in the location box on your profile.
Re: arc fault circuit breakers
i know we are all on the same track, just stating it differently. One last thought. BPH, you stated, "Just because there not any AFCI receptacles now, doesn't mean there won't be any available next week". According to code, 210.12 (b) "arc-fault circuit interruptor listed to provide protection of the entire branch circuit", an afci receptacle would not be compliant. It clearly states entire branch circuit. The circuit starts at the panel. Like Roger said, we can find room to expand on anything, and thats not a bad thing because i'm sure we thoroughly explained the AFCI in this post. Thx all
i know we are all on the same track, just stating it differently. One last thought. BPH, you stated, "Just because there not any AFCI receptacles now, doesn't mean there won't be any available next week". According to code, 210.12 (b) "arc-fault circuit interruptor listed to provide protection of the entire branch circuit", an afci receptacle would not be compliant. It clearly states entire branch circuit. The circuit starts at the panel. Like Roger said, we can find room to expand on anything, and thats not a bad thing because i'm sure we thoroughly explained the AFCI in this post. Thx all
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: arc fault circuit breakers
hurk,
My point is that the CMP made a mistake when they replaced the word "receptacle" in the '99 code with the word "outlet" in the 2002. Right now, the letter of the code does not require any AFCI protection because outlets do not have a voltage and current rating. Devices (receptacles) and circuits do have voltage and current ratings. The intent is clear that the CMP requires that all 15 and 20 amp, 125 volt, single phase circuits that supply bedroom outlets have AFCI protection, but the actual words do not say that. If the section is to be legally enforcable the wording must be changed. The current wording says:
"All 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere branch circuits that supply dwelling unit bedroom outlets shall have AFCI protection for the entire branch circuit."
Don
hurk,
My point is that the CMP made a mistake when they replaced the word "receptacle" in the '99 code with the word "outlet" in the 2002. Right now, the letter of the code does not require any AFCI protection because outlets do not have a voltage and current rating. Devices (receptacles) and circuits do have voltage and current ratings. The intent is clear that the CMP requires that all 15 and 20 amp, 125 volt, single phase circuits that supply bedroom outlets have AFCI protection, but the actual words do not say that. If the section is to be legally enforcable the wording must be changed. The current wording says:
It should be changed to say:
"All 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere branch circuits that supply dwelling unit bedroom outlets shall have AFCI protection for the entire branch circuit."
Don
Ed MacLaren
Senior Member
Re: arc fault circuit breakers
Ed
[ March 30, 2003, 11:38 AM: Message edited by: Ed MacLaren ]
The Canadian Electrical Code does not permit smoke alarms to be connected to AFCI or GFCI protected circuits.
Ed
[ March 30, 2003, 11:38 AM: Message edited by: Ed MacLaren ]
bphgravity
Senior Member
- Location
- Florida
Re: arc fault circuit breakers
Ed, it is my opinion that smokes should be on AFCI's because I would rather have a device that prevents a fire than a device that detects a fire. Life Safety Code does require that smokes be interconnected and have battery backup. If a bedroom circuit trips the AFCI and in effect kills the smoke, it will still be operational by either the interconnect signal or the battery power source. Just my opinion!
Ed, it is my opinion that smokes should be on AFCI's because I would rather have a device that prevents a fire than a device that detects a fire. Life Safety Code does require that smokes be interconnected and have battery backup. If a bedroom circuit trips the AFCI and in effect kills the smoke, it will still be operational by either the interconnect signal or the battery power source. Just my opinion!
Re: arc fault circuit breakers
Bph, I still have a problem with the "God send AFCI" in the sense that it is looking for parallel
arcing. I have, and still say, series arcing is a greater potential for catastrophy.
With that said, I would not see much of a chance for series arching (bridging an air gap) at the minute load of a smoke detector.
I think it would be far more practicle to have smoke, or any fire protection on any circuit not GFCI or AFCI protected even with battery back up.
Now I will ask a question that was asked earlier,
Roger
[ March 30, 2003, 08:54 PM: Message edited by: roger ]
Bph, I still have a problem with the "God send AFCI" in the sense that it is looking for parallel
arcing. I have, and still say, series arcing is a greater potential for catastrophy.
With that said, I would not see much of a chance for series arching (bridging an air gap) at the minute load of a smoke detector.
I think it would be far more practicle to have smoke, or any fire protection on any circuit not GFCI or AFCI protected even with battery back up.
Now I will ask a question that was asked earlier,
why not tell us who you are?
Roger
[ March 30, 2003, 08:54 PM: Message edited by: roger ]
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: arc fault circuit breakers
Hi Bryan, that seems a little more friendly, glad you introduced yourself.
No need to hide here, I have gotten some interesting e-mails from having my name and e-mail up at the forum and no spam.
Bob
Hi Bryan, that seems a little more friendly, glad you introduced yourself.
No need to hide here, I have gotten some interesting e-mails from having my name and e-mail up at the forum and no spam.
Bob
bphgravity
Senior Member
- Location
- Florida
Re: arc fault circuit breakers
Thanks Bob, I truely am not trying to be impersonal. I just figured I should keep as little profile on myself as possible considering I also seem to be in disagreement with just about everyone on this forum! I think for now on I will just wait for one of you guys to answer the question and I will simply reply, "Yea, what he said. I agree." Sometimes I think I may be reading my code book upside down!
Thanks Bob, I truely am not trying to be impersonal. I just figured I should keep as little profile on myself as possible considering I also seem to be in disagreement with just about everyone on this forum!
I think for now on I will just wait for one of you guys to answer the question and I will simply reply, "Yea, what he said. I agree." Sometimes I think I may be reading my code book upside down! - Status