arc fault circuit breakers

[jxofaltrds]

Re: arc fault circuit breakers

Qusestion?

210.12 is for 125vac outlets serving bedrooms.

If switches, lights and smokes are 120vac outlets, can't they be fed by a none afci circuit?

Mike P.

 

[iwire]

Re: arc fault circuit breakers

Article 100 Outlet; A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.

Smoke detectors, receptacles and lights would be utilization equipment, switches are not.

But 210.12(B) requires the entire branch circuit be protected so switches are included along with the wiring in the walls that supply the bedroom outlets.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Re: arc fault circuit breakers

Bob

Yes.

My point is that it only specifies 125vac outlets.

Mike P.

 

[kalbrecht]

Re: arc fault circuit breakers

Post deleted

[ March 31, 2003, 11:12 AM: Message edited by: kalbrecht ]

 

[iwire]

Re: arc fault circuit breakers

Mike I am confused as to what you are getting at.

2002 NEC

210.12(B)Dwelling Unit Bedrooms. All branch circuits that supply 125 volt, 15- and 20- ampere outlets installed in dwelling unit bedrooms shall be protected by an arc-fault circuit interrupter listed to provide protection of the entire branch circuit.

don_resqcapt19 pointed out a problem with this wording that needs to be changed (outlets are not rated) but I take it to mean if a smoke is in the bedroom it would have to be supplied by an AFCI unless you are in an area that amended this.

[ March 31, 2003, 11:34 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]

 

[bphgravity]

Re: arc fault circuit breakers

Bob, I think what Jason is trying to say is that 210.12(B) specificaly states 125-volt supply and that if he has a 120-volt supply, the circuits would be exempt from this code.

Jason, Article 100 definition for Voltage, Nominal states that a nonmial value is assigned to a circuit for the purpose of conveniently designating its voltage class. It continues to say that the actual voltage at which a circuit operates can vary from the nominal within a range that permits satisfactory operation. So in the case of 210.12(B), 125-volt is a nominal value that includes 110-125 connected voltage.

I find that the definition section of the code is the most underused yet one of the most valuable sections of the code for proper interpretation of code intent.

 

[iwire]

Re: arc fault circuit breakers

Thanks Bryan, looking back at his posts I see that now. When I see 110, 115, 120, 125 I just think of it as all the same, as article 100 tells us it is.

I agree article 100 is always good to compare to what ever other article you are looking at.

Look at the definition of "Structure" I was surprised how broad that is.

Bob

 

[charlie b]

Re: arc fault circuit breakers

Originally posted by don_resqcapt19: Right now, the letter of the code does not require any AFCI protection because outlets do not have a voltage and current rating. Devices (receptacles) and circuits do have voltage and current ratings.

I have to disagree, Don. The letter of the code, as written, does require AFCI protection, because it does not call upon ?outlets? to have ?ratings.? I think you are reading too much into the word ?rating,? and reading that word where it is not written. The code does not say ??outlets that have a UL listing or other marking that certifies them as being rated for 125 volts and for 15 or 20 amps.? Rather, it speaks of supplying ?125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere outlets.? This language means AFCI is required if the wires in the outlet box have 125 volts (nominal) between hot and neutral, and if the current is limited (i.e., by the OCPD) to 15 or to 20 amps.

By the way, my understanding of this requirement tells me that it does not apply to a switch located in the bedroom that controls a light located in an adjacent closet. Am I right about that?

 

[jason]

Re: arc fault circuit breakers

I'm really confused as to where anyone came up with the idea that I was thinking 120v is exempt as compared to 125v..... LOL, I never said anything like that.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: arc fault circuit breakers

Charlie,
I agree with the last part of your post as to the switch because the switch is not installed at an outlet and the lighting outlet that is controlled by the switch is not in the bedroom.
In my opinion, the section should have been reworded when the word "receptacle" was replaced with the word "outlet". In the 99 code the rating clearly applied to the word "receptacle", and in the '02 code the rating applies to the word "outlet". I believe that it is the intent of the code to require AFCI protection for all 15 and 25 ampere, 125 volt circuits that supply outlets located in the bedroom. I just don't think that the words support the intent. I'm sure that there will be major changes in this section in the 2005 code, and maybe they will word it correctly then.
Don

 

[roger]

Re: arc fault circuit breakers

With the fact that AFCI's do have GFCI protection, has anyone thought about the NFPA 72 requirement that smoke detectors "shall not" be installed on GFCI protected circuits.

It doesn't distinguish between 30ma or 6ma.

I don't have the NFPA 72 here at home or I would quote the article #. I do know it's in chapter 6.

Another case of NFPA CMP's not getting together?

Roger

 

[frenchelectrican]

Re: arc fault circuit breakers

don :

i can see the wording on 99 codes but i did not get chance to review all of the 02 codes yet because right now i am in intanglement with wisconsin state code and almost the same with 02 code it will be effect in july but as far for the afci in bedroom ciurict ( sorry for spelling ) use for any devices but not the light but i want to ask you a quick question to make sure i am right about bedroom cr. e.g. a single pole switch go to the outside light fixure do not required to use the afci ?? that area i am feel in grey area so before i get myself screw up i will like to ask few sparky around here including you too don to get straght answer with afci ( note wisconsin did delete afci requirement for while but dont know when will be reforcement yet )


thanks for your time to read this one


merci marc

 

[jason]

Re: arc fault circuit breakers

IMO, every device, outlet, receptacle, light switch, lighting, garbage disposal, dishwasher, stove, dryer or anything else in the bedroom should be afci protected. I would not put a smoke detector on an afci circuit, unless i installed the detector IN the bedroom, but then again I never put a smoke in the bedroom. But, thats just my opinion... just a reminder that inspectors also have opinions, and their opinions are the ones that count.

 

[hurk27]

Re: arc fault circuit breakers

Tim yes Indiana has amended the state electrical code to reinstall the "99" wording. in which they just put back the word "receptacle"

Don I cought that one a while back and just forgot about it but your right. it is worded wrong and should be changed to just what you stated.

this is one of those little things that got missed like the part of 210.52 that if you read it it just about allows all the receptacles in a house to be put on the 2 kitchen counter circuits.

shall serve all receptacle outlets covered by 210.52 (A) and (C) and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment.

Now look at 210.52 (A)

(A) General Provisions. In every kitchen, family room, dining room, living room, parlor, library, den, sunroom, bedroom, recreation room, or similar room or area of dwelling units, receptacle outlets shall be installed in accordance with the general provisions specified in 210.52(A)(1) through (A)(3).

it covers about every room in a house.
tell me that wasn't a misprint?

 

[hurk27]

Re: arc fault circuit breakers

Whoop's I thought I was two pages back. Oh well

 

[bill addiss]

Re: arc fault circuit breakers

Jason,

Just a note, many areas do require Smoke Detectors inside every Bedroom as per the applicable Building Code.

Bill

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: arc fault circuit breakers

french,
The code does not require AFCI protection for a circuit that supplies a switch that is in the bedroom, with the light in another room. This is because a switch does not meet the definition of an outlet. The intent of the section is to require AFCI protection for any15 or 20 amp, 125 volt branch circuit that supplies a load in the bedroom.
Don

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: arc fault circuit breakers

Roger,
Standard AFCIs do not have GFCI protection. They have GFP protection. A standard AFCI will not provide "people protection" and we should not be using the term GFCI for the ground fault protection that is provided by an AFCI.
Don

 

[mikeackley]

Re: arc fault circuit breakers

Don: Just a brief positive comment on your posts above ? very well stated. You have a real knack of drawing out the most salient points of a discussion and summarizing them in clear concise language. Appreciate your contributions. -- Mike

 

[gent]

Re: arc fault circuit breakers

Jason, smoke detectors are required inside the sleeping room because it is common practice to sleep with the door closed. Codes require detectors in each sleeping room, outside the sleeping area, and on every habitable story... hardwired and interconnected.
We have exempted them from the AFCI rule.