Arc Fault Panel Change 2023

[LakeHomeElectric]

Hello,

First time posting. Long time lurking
Ohio just took on the 2023 code cycle.
I did a service upgrade100A to 200A and the electrical inspector about made me cry when he said I needed arc fault breakers like in a new work application. He let me slide on the panel because my permit was pulled before the code cycle change. I recently purchased a new 2023 code book and got to looking. All I can find in 210.12 is pretty close to what i was seeing in 2017. The exception of extension of 6ft or more applies.

I called the inspector today and confirmed that he wants me to make pretty much everything in a house, when a panel change out is performed, to arc fault. I told him I couldn't find the section number and he said its in the back of the 200s somewhere...... Can someone confirm this. I have been looking for a while now. I wish he would have given me an exact section number. Apologies if this has been covered elsewhere.

 

[Joe.B]

I think they're misinterpreting the rule. My best argument for this would be the new surge protection rules, (230.67 in my book) which specifically says "(D) Replacement. Where service equipment is replaced, all of the requirements of this section shall apply." Nothing like that for AFCI or GFCI. Go up the food chain if you have to.

Had a previous boss who came here believing that upgrading breakers for service upgrades was a requirement, caused quite a stir. Eventually he went to some training somewhere (NFPA I think) and the instructor said that was not the intention of the code, if that was the intent they would spell it out like they did with SPD.

 

[LarryFine]

He let me slide on the panel because my permit was pulled before the code cycle change.

Welcome to the forum.

He didn't let anything slide. A job is only required to comply with the code in effect at the time the permit is issued. It could cost a contractor a fortune to have to meet new rules mid-job.

I called the inspector today and confirmed that he wants me to make pretty much everything in a house, when a panel change out is performed, to arc fault.

This guy really likes to make up his own requirements. Don't kowtow; it sets a bad precedent. Everyone has a supervisor for a reason. Appeal such rulings formally if necessary. Know the NEC!

It's just as wrong to improperly fail an installation as it is to improperly pass one.

 

[LakeHomeElectric]

I think they're misinterpreting the rule. My best argument for this would be the new surge protection rules, (230.67 in my book) which specifically says "(D) Replacement. Where service equipment is replaced, all of the requirements of this section shall apply." Nothing like that for AFCI or GFCI. Go up the food chain if you have to.

Had a previous boss who came here believing that upgrading breakers for service upgrades was a requirement, caused quite a stir. Eventually he went to some training somewhere (NFPA I think) and the instructor said that was not the intention of the code, if that was the intent they would spell it out like they did with SPD.

Thank you for the reply. Unfortunately my inspector is the top of the food chain in this county. His boss is a plumbing expert. Small town Ohio.
I don't want to ruffle feathers until I have the code section he is referencing........ He can make or break my business here and I have a great relationship with him so far 5 years.

 

[infinity]

Thank you for the reply. Unfortunately my inspector is the top of the food chain in this county. His boss is a plumbing expert. Small town Ohio.
I don't want to ruffle feathers until I have the code section he is referencing

What code section is he referencing?

 

[LakeHomeElectric]

Welcome to the forum.

He didn't let anything slide. A job is only required to comply with the code in effect at the time the permit is issued. It could cost a contractor a fortune to have to meet new rules mid-job.


This guy really likes to make up his own requirements. Don't kowtow; it sets a bad precedent. Everyone has a supervisor for a reason. Appeal such rulings formally if necessary. Know the NEC!

It's just as wrong to improperly fail an installation as it is to improperly pass one.

Thanks.

 

[LakeHomeElectric]

What code section is he referencing?

I asked..... he didn't give me an answer. He said its somewhere in the back..... It was not a good answer. I am disappointed. I have been on 2017 for 5 years and know it well. 2023 came in this month and I have not had time to read up. Fail on my part but its hard to argue when he is holding the fate of my business in his hands and I don't know all the code changes yet.

 

[Eddie702]

The inspector needs to reference the code. He is telling you what he wants rather than what the code requires. I appreciate the fact that you don't want to ruffle his feathers.

Ohio must have a state electrical board that you could get some answers from and get a ruling from them

 

[infinity]

I asked..... he didn't give me an answer. He said its somewhere in the back..... It was not a good answer. I am disappointed. I have been on 2017 for 5 years and know it well. 2023 came in this month and I have not had time to read up. Fail on my part but its hard to argue when he is holding the fate of my business in his hands and I don't know all the code changes yet.

Politely tell him that you need a code reference because you think that he is wrong but you want to look it up to be sure. Unless there is a local amendment he's just making up his own rules. When in doubt go over his head.

 

[LakeHomeElectric]

The inspector needs to reference the code. He is telling you what he wants rather than what the code requires. I appreciate the fact that you don't want to ruffle his feathers.

Ohio must have a state electrical board that you could get some answers from and get a ruling from them

They do. Its too late in day to call them. I will be speaking with them tomorrow. So the general consensus is no.

 

[LakeHomeElectric]

Politely tell him that you need a code reference because you think that he is wrong but you want to look it up to be sure. Unless there is a local amendment he's just making up his own rules. When in doubt go over his head.

Will do. Thanks

 

[LarryFine]

2023 came in this month and I have not had time to read up.

Totally irrelevant to your permit and/or scope of work. Only the '17 applies to your job until it's done.

 

[ramsy]

Unfortunately my inspector is the top of the food chain in this county.

Panel flippers on this forum do not share the inspector's point of view, when enforcing AFCI's.

You need a residential service contractor, to explain AFCI code requirements.

 

[ramsy]

Totally irrelevant to your permit and/or scope of work. Only the '17 applies to your job until it's done.

After a remodel or outlet replacement inspector would be in the right, since the 2011 NFPA-70

 

[LarryFine]

After a remodel or outlet replacement inspector would be in the right, since the 2011 NFPA-70

I don't understand that, or how it applies here.

 

[ramsy]

I don't understand that, or how it applies here.

Forum moderators are deleting me for going against the grain. I'm going to quit while I'm ahead.

 

[Joe.B]

Thank you for the reply. Unfortunately my inspector is the top of the food chain in this county. His boss is a plumbing expert. Small town Ohio.
I don't want to ruffle feathers until I have the code section he is referencing........ He can make or break my business here and I have a great relationship with him so far 5 years.

Understood, and hopefully y'all work it out. I think one thing you could do is print out 210.12 from your current 2023 code in question, and print out the same from the previous section. Side by side I bet they're basically the same.

 

[LakeHomeElectric]

After a remodel or outlet replacement inspector would be in the right, since the 2011 NF

Understood, and hopefully y'all work it out. I think one thing you could do is print out 210.12 from your current 2023 code in question, and print out the same from the previous section. Side by side I bet they're basically the same.

I emailed him for a specific code reference just now. His answer wasn't good enough. I disagree with him and I hate making people pay for things they don't need. We are taxed to death daily and inflation is putting people in the poor house these days. If they don't need to pay an extra 1400 for a panel swap/service upgrade I wont make them.

 

[electrofelon]

I emailed him for a specific code reference just now. His answer wasn't good enough. I disagree with him and I hate making people pay for things they don't need. We are taxed to death daily and inflation is putting people in the poor house these days. If they don't need to pay an extra 1400 for a panel swap/service upgrade I wont make them.

I know it can be uncomfortable going up against an inspector, but keep at it, this is huge deal if is making every who changes a panel spend an extra $1500 plus likely hours of trouble shooting finding crossed neutrals making them not hold. You definitely can't let this one go.

 

[CoolWill]

"I'm not trying to get you worked up here, we've known each other for a good number of years. I'm just trying to educate myself, and so far, everything I've read says it isn't required. The Internet says it isn't required. My buddy in Texas is an electrician and he reads it the same way I do. So, help me out here and let's go through this together since I must be missing something. Here, you can use my code book..."