Arc Fault Panel Change 2023

electrofelon said:
I know it can be uncomfortable going up against an inspector, but keep at it, this is huge deal if is making every who changes a panel spend an extra $1500 plus likely hours of trouble shooting finding crossed neutrals making them not hold. You definitely can't let this one go.
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What I experienced here when the new guy came in hot trying to require this is that the automatic response was either not to do the upgrade, or do it without permits. I'd wager that either of those could be more dangerous than not upgrading to AFCI.
 
210.12 Covers AFCI's.
I'm pretty sure the inspector isn't requiring you to rewire the whole house to install AFCI's.
I ran into problems when AFCI's first came out. I drove myself nuts because I could get both sets of conductors to work, but not at the same time. Somewhere in the house, the neutrals were connected. If two circuits share a neutral, it will continue to trip. I told the inspector that most of the AFCI's worked, but I couldn't get that one circuit that was sharing a neutral to work. He allowed me to just use a regular circuit breaker. It was an older house, probably built in the 60's.
The only other thing he said he couldn't pass was that I connected the aluminum and copper conductors with purple wire nuts. I told him that they were identified for that purpose, but only a one time use. I printed it out on the internet, and he passed it.
You may want to go to another county and ask one of their inspectors and see what their interpretation is.
Your installation should be grandfathered in.
Good luck.
Steve
 
LarryFine said:
I don't understand that, or how it applies here.
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More AHJ's are forcing panel flippers to fix inside wiring issues, per 406.4(D)

The OP inspector is from Ohio, the link above is from Massachusetts, both using similar language to red tag panel flippers:

"The breakers must comply with NEC section 406.4(D). It is a life safety hazard that must be corrected before a final inspection / certificate of occupancy will be approved in this jurisdiction."
 
That is a good section for electricians to know, but the trigger for afci/gfci/tr/wr receptacles is changing out a receptacle and not a panel change. I recommend an electrician change no receptacles when doing a panel change.
 
suemarkp said:
the trigger for afci/gfci/tr/wr receptacles is changing out a receptacle and not a panel change
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Most AHJ's limit inspection scope to service equipment, ignoring 406.4(D) violations, since they are indemnified from lawsuits.

My guess is some savvy accident attorney figured out how to pin a related casualty claim on this AHJ for ignoring it.

Would you agree those AHJ's that find illegal devices may choose to red tag the owner, who may refuse, and still sell property with open permits "as is" to cash buyers.
suemarkp said:
I recommend an electrician change no receptacles when doing a panel change.
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Would you agree those AHJ's should not care which electrician fixes it?
 
In my area, I don't believe a permit is needed for a receptacle swap. Certainly, they can red tag a receptacle if a permit was pulled for a branch circuit and it has non compliant receptacles. They can't just red tag non-AFCI receptacles unless there is good evidence of that receptacle having been replaced under recent code. How often that will happen I don't know. I know I was disappointed on my last inspection for a Service Alteration, feeder, subpanel, and transfer switch. He green tagged the meter and main panel. I had to ask for stickers on the subpanel and transfer switch, and he didn't even look at the generator inlet for proper labeling or location.

Savvy buyers look for pulled permits and their dispositions. Many aren't savvy. The real estate disclosure forms most likely have a statement about work being performed with permits. Not sure if that statement covers permits being closed out successfully though.

Not sure if the AHJ cares about who fixes it or not. Probably depends on the permit and who is allowed to ask for a reinspect and close it out.
 
If you modify or extend wiring more than 6’, AFCI is required per 210.12(E) on circuits in areas described in 210.12(B).
 
ramsy said:
Most AHJ's limit inspection scope to service equipment, ignoring 406.4(D) violations, since they are indemnified from lawsuits.

My guess is some savvy accident attorney figured out how to pin a related casualty claim on this AHJ for ignoring it.

Would you agree those AHJ's that find illegal devices may choose to red tag the owner, who may refuse, and still sell property with open permits "as is" to cash buyers.

Would you agree those AHJ's should not care which electrician fixes it?
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How can the inspector tell if a given receptacle has been replaced or not? Especially if the permit is for a service replacement.
 
retirede said:
How can the inspector tell if a given receptacle has been replaced or not? Especially if the permit is for a service replacement.
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Exiting receptacles in older homes wont resemble anything made recently.
 

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LakeHomeElectric said:
I asked..... he didn't give me an answer. He said its somewhere in the back..... It was not a good answer. I am disappointed. I have been on 2017 for 5 years and know it well. 2023 came in this month and I have not had time to read up. Fail on my part but its hard to argue when he is holding the fate of my business in his hands and I don't know all the code changes yet.
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You need to ask what section will be written on any report he sends out when/should things end up coming down to that. That will be what any court would base a decision on if it would go that far, lack of such a thing leaves you with the NEC content you have looked at not having any such requirement if you are using that as your evidence in the case and assuming he can not produce any legal amendments the AHJ may have that states otherwise.

City/county inspector like you said isn't impossible to go over their head, just more difficult. The people you will be going to are not electrical professionals so will need some convincing and educating on code and if not willing and you press it hard enough can eventually come down to their city/county attorney having to either learn or at least come up with experts that have some qualifications to help determine what the code says, again presuming they don't find legal local amendments that state otherwise.
 
Eddie702 said:
The inspector needs to reference the code. He is telling you what he wants rather than what the code requires. I appreciate the fact that you don't want to ruffle his feathers.

Ohio must have a state electrical board that you could get some answers from and get a ruling from them
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True, even city or county jurisdictions usually need to comply with anything the state jurisdiction has for rules. They could possibly have rules more strict than state has, but need to be legal amendments and published somewhere as the law. If so this inspector should need to produce a reference to such law if he is going to reject an installation because of that rule. Without any amendment then most likely NEC (specific edition) is likely referenced in some law as what applies and whatever rule he can't seem tell you where it is - he needs to find before he makes any official rejection of the installation or else he is subjecting himself/his employer (likely city/county board) to potential legal issues over this.

Unfortunately most installers give in to the whims of such inspectors and they continue to have their own rules vs the legal rules.
 
suemarkp said:
Not sure if the AHJ cares about who fixes it or not. Probably depends on the permit and who is allowed to ask for a reinspect and close it out.
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Where inside wiring fails on panel flipper’s permit, who refuses to touch that can of worms, IMHO the parties have options:

* Change order to hire someone who can pass the inside wiring inspection

* Owner Builder may assume the permit & hire someone else to pass inspection

* Owner may reject inspection, and still sell property with open permits "as is" to cash buyers
 
ramsy said:
Where inside wiring fails on panel flipper’s permit, who refuses to touch that can of worms, IMHO the parties have options:

* Change order to hire someone who can pass the inside wiring inspection

* Owner Builder may assume the permit & hire someone else to pass inspection

* Owner may reject inspection, and still sell property with open permits "as is" to cash buyers
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This can all be different in different jurisdictions.

Here homeowners are able to file permits to do wiring in their primary home, they have to live in it. They can't wire their own brand new home as they do not yet live in it. That is a little bit of a more recent rule though it has been around at least 10 to 15 years now. State inspectors were tired of being a "how to service" for these homeowners and this rule alone lessened that kind of thing somewhat dramatically for them. They still have to do this at times for someone working on a home they already live in though.

All others performing the install must be licensed or registered apprentices and working under someone with appropriate contractor license.

If there is issues with outstanding violations and original contractor is no longer in the picture another contractor can fix it but must file his own permit.

Depending on the conditions why the first contractor will not be fixing the problems he may or may not have bad marks go against his license. Most the time when I been involved with finishing another contractors project it was because of disputes between owner and contractor and owner essentially no longer wants anything to do with that contractor. Most the fix the violations of someone else I have encountered is usually violations by unlicensed persons and they likely got caught installing wiring without permit on top of the installation violations. Inspector won't let them make their own corrections in those cases, except possibly a homeowner working in their own place of residence.
 
kwired said:
State inspectors were tired of being a "how to service" ..violations by unlicensed persons ..installing wiring (hazards) without permit
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Yes, the best option is choosing an electrical company that competently abates inside-wiring defects, in compliance with 406.4(D), and passes inspections for service upgrades, while providing a certificate of additionally insured. Options not typically offered by one-man shops.

While inferior owner-builder permits, or general contractor with laborers doing electrical, may also access plan review & inspections for anticipated defects, AHJ's indemnified from lawsuits can miss buried hazards, and ignore the labor violations, known to cause liability train wrecks for owners.

IMHO What perpetually drives the underground house-flipping economy is the system of home inspectors, used by realtors and mortgage bankers, to avoid permits required for repairs, since property-tax assessment that comes with building permits are never invited to the real-estate party.
 
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