cloth wiring

[scottakins7204]

I have a customer who is looking for something in writing for her insurance company about cloth wiring. We don't have any local ordinance about it and its not listed in the NEC. Maybe someone can point me in the right direction. I would appreciate that. Have a nice day everyone.

 

[Little Bill]

Its just NM cable with a different sheath than is used today. Also, just rated 60 deg, where the newer NM-B is rated 90 deg. It's usually not a problem with the exceptions of lighting where they used too high of a wattage bulb. Not much of a problem today with all the LED bulbs. Another possible problem is if is has been handled enough that the sheathing falls off due to age.

I'm sure I missed something so others may add to this.

 

[jim dungar]

Wasn't the ground wire smaller in this old cables?

 

[ramsy]

looking for something in writing for her insurance company about cloth wiring.

NEC Annex F: Part II describes 3rd party testing, since most contractors will only quote remodel wiring, wont carry Meggers, or Hi-Pot testers, much less test during high humidity.

IMHO Insurance may accept any method that transfers liability to other parties. Qualified persons may warranty NEC 550.17 Testing, or home owner may submit a GL certificate of additionally insured from any contractor warranty.

 

[NEC Inspector]

Normally, when I see it locally, it does not have a ground. At least the stuff in my house doesn't.

 

[infinity]

Cloth wiring is a made up term that Florida insurance companies love to see on a 4 point inspection. In my experience they don't even know what the definition of cloth wiring is. Some old NM cable without a PVC jacket still has thermoplastic insulation.

We need to see some photos of the cables in question.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Wasn't the ground wire smaller in this old cables?

Yes, I think that changed in the late 60s.

 

[CoolWill]

The biggest issues, as noted, was the lack of a ground, or an undersized ground, and the temperature rating at light fixtures. The undersized ground isn't that big of a deal as long as it has continuity. I noticed that the small size made it easier to break. But electrically speaking, it functions fine if it is intact. The temp rating isn't much a problem anymore because LED lights are much cooler now. The real problem is the cooked wiring above the existing overlamped incandescents. Aside from ripping it out and replacing it, you can heat shrink it to restore the insulation and pigtail on some THHN as a sidestep.

 

[Rick 0920]

Wasn't the ground wire smaller in this old cables?

When Romex came out with a grounding conductor in it, it was smaller than the insulated conductors.

 

[pipe_bender]

My city inspector taught me this term 'grandfathered in' to use with insurance,
For example when I do a old house service panel upgrade if there is old ungrounded branch circuits the receptacles in the house are 'grandfathered in' if they are either 2-prong, 3-prong grounded, or GFCI protected,
if they have ungrounded 3-prong that is not 'grandfathered' so its a building violation and or insurance violation.
Oddly they don't care about TR or WR.
Funny thing is a GFCI tester wont trip a GFCI on a old two wire.

 

[CoolWill]

Funny thing is a GFCI tester wont trip a GFCI on a old two wire.

That's perfectly normal for an ungrounded circuit.

 

[Rick 0920]

That's perfectly normal for an ungrounded circuit.

It should trip. Why would they require replacements of non-grounding type receptacles with new grounding type receptacles only if they are GFCI protected.

 

[roger]

No, a GFCI analyzer will not trip the device if it's connected to only a grounded and ungrounded conductor. The on board test button will. The device will still function properly.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

It should trip. Why would they require replacements of non-grounding type receptacles with new grounding type receptacles only if they are GFCI protected.

How would a plug in tester trip the GFCI? The plug in tester puts a small load between the hot and the EGC...no equipment grounding conductor no trip. Also, even though you are installing grounding type receptacles downstream of a GFCI on a circuit that does not have an EGC, the code prohibits running an equipment grounding conductor to those receptacles.

That being said there a lots of ground fault paths that people can come into contact with, and the GFCI provides the protection in those cases without an EGC..

 

[AC\DC]

In todays home unless your outside . Lack of egc in the home or undersized is not a big deal everything pvc so no reference to ground.

 

[ramsy]

My city inspector taught me this term 'grandfathered in' to use with insurance,
For example when I do a old house service panel upgrade ..if they have ungrounded 3-prong that is not 'grandfathered' so its a building violation and or insurance violation.

Did city inspector red tag such outlet violations, or just pass panel upgrades without asking for xFCI to abate the hazards?

 

[JMR Construction]

Wasn't the ground wire smaller in this old cables?

Smaller or nonexistent, I've seen both. The smaller ground was something like 18 AWG. I'm rewiring a home built 1972 right now that has relatively newer NM with a black (PVC?) jacket, it's all 12/2 or 14/2, no ground.

 

[pipe_bender]

Did city inspector red tag such outlet violations, or just pass panel upgrades without asking for xFCI to abate the hazards?

inspection wont pass and you'll get this order to correct:

Regarding replacements of over current devices on ungrounded circuits, In the state of Massachusetts if a electrical installation is in compliance with a previous edition of the State Electrical Code that was in effect when a building was built or occupied it shall not be required to brought up to the current code.
There is no previous code that allowed a grounding type receptacle to be installed on a two wire non-grounded circuit with no equipment grounding conductor.
Your permit covers removal and replacement of branch circuit breakers protecting several grounding type outlets on ungrounded wiring that do not comply compliance with 406.4(D). The breakers must comply with NEC section 406.4(D). It is a life safety hazard that must be corrected before a final inspection / certificate of occupancy will be approved in this jurisdiction. Install a GFCI breaker and call for re-inspection. Note the state has deleted 250.130(C)

 

[ramsy]

inspection wont pass and you'll get this order to correct:

“Your permit covers removal and replacement of branch circuit breakers protecting several grounding type outlets on ungrounded wiring that do not comply compliance with 406.4(D). The breakers must comply with NEC section 406.4(D). It is a life safety hazard that must be corrected before a final inspection / certificate of occupancy will be approved in this jurisdiction. Install a GFCI breaker and call for re-inspection. Note the state has deleted 250.130(C)”

Boston may be the last city standing.

Enforcing 406.4(D) during panel-flipper permits removes one more cause for insurance non-renewal & cancellation, due to uninsurable "increased hazards".

 

[Fred B]

Seen several variations of cloth wrapped NM. All were not more than 60 degC. Some had no EGC or a very small one. Some without the EGC actually had the conductors also individually wrapped with cloth over the rubber insulation, same as some old BX. Most every one of them the wire insulation was very brittle and some was actually broken. Not sure if they all had it, but some actually had asbestos in the wrapping threads.

So several hazards present with the old cloth wrap cable and wire. While the cable itself may not be a violation for cause but the underlying issues when present are valid reasons to replace.