Arc Fault Protection
- Thread starter drb
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charlie
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis
Re: Arc Fault Protection
In my opinion, they are not in the bedroom.
In my opinion, they are not in the bedroom.
ryan_618
Senior Member
- Location
- Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: Arc Fault Protection
I agree with Charlie, but this is one that only the AHJ can answer...
I agree with Charlie, but this is one that only the AHJ can answer...
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: Arc Fault Protection
I also agree. But I would guess that it is likely that you would power them from the same circuit anyway. And since the whole circuit must be AFCI-protected, they would come along for the ride. It is just not an NEC requirement.
I also agree. But I would guess that it is likely that you would power them from the same circuit anyway. And since the whole circuit must be AFCI-protected, they would come along for the ride. It is just not an NEC requirement.
al hildenbrand
Senior Member
- Location
- Minnesota
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Re: Arc Fault Protection
kendog,
Does 210.12(B) have the word "closet" in it?
kendog,
Does 210.12(B) have the word "closet" in it?
Re: Arc Fault Protection
No it don't but it doesn't say that a BEDROOM closet shall be omitted either. I'm sure that if you ask an engineer if a BEDROOM closet is considered part of the bedroom he would say yes. Plus the last thing you want to see happen is you get all your wiring done and the inspector wants you to rip it apart becuase you don't agree that a BEDROOM closet is part of the bedroom.
No it don't but it doesn't say that a BEDROOM closet shall be omitted either. I'm sure that if you ask an engineer if a BEDROOM closet is considered part of the bedroom he would say yes. Plus the last thing you want to see happen is you get all your wiring done and the inspector wants you to rip it apart becuase you don't agree that a BEDROOM closet is part of the bedroom.
bphgravity
Senior Member
- Location
- Florida
Re: Arc Fault Protection
We have had this discussion before, a couple times actually. Most if not all buildings codes define a closet as a distinct and separate room from the bedroom or any other room that it serves.
It is my opinion that bedroom closet outlets and the branch circuit that serves them should have afci protection, however at this point that is my design choice, not a code requirement.
I believe afci expansion to all habitable rooms and additional locations is inevitable. Closets will proabably be included at that time.
We have had this discussion before, a couple times actually. Most if not all buildings codes define a closet as a distinct and separate room from the bedroom or any other room that it serves.
It is my opinion that bedroom closet outlets and the branch circuit that serves them should have afci protection, however at this point that is my design choice, not a code requirement.
I believe afci expansion to all habitable rooms and additional locations is inevitable. Closets will proabably be included at that time.
charlie
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis
Re: Arc Fault Protection
In my opinion, a closet is a non-habitable room albeit a small one. It is not a part of another room but it does open into the next room. I suppose the utility room that has the furnace and water heater is part of the kitchen if it has a door that opens into the kitchen?
In my opinion, a closet is a non-habitable room albeit a small one. It is not a part of another room but it does open into the next room. I suppose the utility room that has the furnace and water heater is part of the kitchen if it has a door that opens into the kitchen?
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Service Manager
Re: Arc Fault Protection
Does the door swing into the kitchen?
Good analogy, Charlie.
Does the door swing into the kitchen?
Good analogy, Charlie.
al hildenbrand
Senior Member
- Location
- Minnesota
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Re: Arc Fault Protection
And the Hallway door that opens into the bedroom. . .If AFCI is required in a closet 'cause the closet opens into the bedroom, then a hallway must also be AFCI protected. . .
Or is it that the bed opens into the hallway. . .
Most doors on beds open into the bed, most doors on closets open into the bed. . .
But I can't sleep in the closet, reasonably. I can't claim the closet as an extra bedroom when I sell the house. So, kendog, this is the confusion that gets introduced if a bed becomes more than the plan defined area.
And the Hallway door that opens into the bedroom. . .If AFCI is required in a closet 'cause the closet opens into the bedroom, then a hallway must also be AFCI protected. . .
Or is it that the bed opens into the hallway. . .
Most doors on beds open into the bed, most doors on closets open into the bed. . .
But I can't sleep in the closet, reasonably. I can't claim the closet as an extra bedroom when I sell the house. So, kendog, this is the confusion that gets introduced if a bed becomes more than the plan defined area.
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: Arc Fault Protection
I am an engineer, and I say ?no.? In fact, I?ve said so several times on this Forum. Other members have had other opinions. You can do a word search for ?ACFI? or for ?bedroom,? and see some interesting discussions.
Re: Arc Fault Protection
Is a Bath Room that can be entered from the Bed Room a Bath Room or part of the Bed Room?
I know of people that have slept in Bath Tubs.
With that said, could the exhaust fan be located in the Bed Room, could the required smoke detector be located in the Bath Room or Closet?
On the other hand, using the same reasoning, is the Bed Room now an extension of the Bath Room not needing AFCI protection at all?
Could the required Bath Room circuit feed the rest of the now reclassified Bed Room?
Ain't this here a mess?
Roger
Is a Bath Room that can be entered from the Bed Room a Bath Room or part of the Bed Room?
I know of people that have slept in Bath Tubs.
With that said, could the exhaust fan be located in the Bed Room, could the required smoke detector be located in the Bath Room or Closet?
On the other hand, using the same reasoning, is the Bed Room now an extension of the Bath Room not needing AFCI protection at all?
Could the required Bath Room circuit feed the rest of the now reclassified Bed Room?
Ain't this here a mess?
Roger
charlie
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis
Re: Arc Fault Protection
Roger is a trouble maker!
Roger is a trouble maker!
al hildenbrand
Senior Member
- Location
- Minnesota
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Re: Arc Fault Protection
Ooooo
Thanks Roger!
Ooooo
Thanks Roger!
Re: Arc Fault Protection
I didn't mean to start an argument about this. With that said, I am a residential electrican been that way for 9 years, two years ago I became an residential building inspector working with mods so we have to be inspected by a notional third party inspection agency and State inspectors on a regular basis. They consider a bedroom closet as a uninhabitable portion of the bedroom. You said about bathrooms, say for instance you have a recep located in a bath room that for say doesn't have a door and out of sheer stupidity someone plugged a radio into it and set it on the floor. If they got shocked or even worse killed would you want to be the one responsible for it. One thing to remember is that the NEC is a guideline and its up the persons having jurisdiction to say how they are going to be followed so my best answer to everyone is to check on this before you just assume.
I didn't mean to start an argument about this. With that said, I am a residential electrican been that way for 9 years, two years ago I became an residential building inspector working with mods so we have to be inspected by a notional third party inspection agency and State inspectors on a regular basis. They consider a bedroom closet as a uninhabitable portion of the bedroom. You said about bathrooms, say for instance you have a recep located in a bath room that for say doesn't have a door and out of sheer stupidity someone plugged a radio into it and set it on the floor. If they got shocked or even worse killed would you want to be the one responsible for it. One thing to remember is that the NEC is a guideline and its up the persons having jurisdiction to say how they are going to be followed so my best answer to everyone is to check on this before you just assume.
charlie
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis
Re: Arc Fault Protection
If I am wrong, I apologize for coming on so strong.
Ken, I have to take exception to that. The Code becomes law and is not subject to anyone deciding it is a guideline. If you have adopted as an ordinance or into law, it carries the weight of law. What would be your reaction if a policeman pulled you over and gave you a ticket for going 50 MPH in a 55 MPH zone because he said that the signs are just a guideline and he thought that you were going too fast?
Ken, that is another bone of contention. So you get to decide what the rules are? I have a real problem with the way you are perceiving the Code and the way you will bully your way while enforcing it.
If I am wrong, I apologize for coming on so strong.
Re: Arc Fault Protection
you are right about the adoption of a code. What I was refering to as far as the person having jurisdiction is that I know of the NEC doesn't define a clo. and the building code that we have to follow (IRC 2003) defines a clo as a room or chamber used for storage. This is very broad it doesn't say that if the closet attached to a room that it is part of it nor dose it say that it isn't so its pretty much up to the inspector to how he takes it. I didn't mean to sound like I was bullying anyone I just wanted to state the fact that if your going to exlude the closet as part of the bedroom for AFCI protection you might want to double check on it.
2005 nec 90.4 Enforcement. This Code is intended to be suitable for mandatory application by governmental bodies that exercise
legal jurisdiction over electrical installations, including signaling and communications systems, and for use by insurance inspectors. The authority having jurisdiction for enforcement of the Code has the responsibility for making
interpretations of the rules, for deciding on the approval of equipment and materials, and for granting the special permission contemplated in a number of the rules.
By special permission, the authority having jurisdictionmay waive specific requirements in this Code or permit alternative methods where it is assured that equivalent objectives can be achieved by establishing and maintaining
effective safety.
This Code may require new products, constructions, or materials that may not yet be available at the time the Code is adopted. In such event, the authority having jurisdiction may permit the use of the products, constructions, or materials
that comply with the most recent previous edition of this Code adopted by the jurisdiction.
[ December 30, 2004, 02:01 PM: Message edited by: kendog ]
you are right about the adoption of a code. What I was refering to as far as the person having jurisdiction is that I know of the NEC doesn't define a clo. and the building code that we have to follow (IRC 2003) defines a clo as a room or chamber used for storage. This is very broad it doesn't say that if the closet attached to a room that it is part of it nor dose it say that it isn't so its pretty much up to the inspector to how he takes it. I didn't mean to sound like I was bullying anyone I just wanted to state the fact that if your going to exlude the closet as part of the bedroom for AFCI protection you might want to double check on it.
2005 nec 90.4 Enforcement. This Code is intended to be suitable for mandatory application by governmental bodies that exercise
legal jurisdiction over electrical installations, including signaling and communications systems, and for use by insurance inspectors. The authority having jurisdiction for enforcement of the Code has the responsibility for making
interpretations of the rules, for deciding on the approval of equipment and materials, and for granting the special permission contemplated in a number of the rules.
By special permission, the authority having jurisdictionmay waive specific requirements in this Code or permit alternative methods where it is assured that equivalent objectives can be achieved by establishing and maintaining
effective safety.
This Code may require new products, constructions, or materials that may not yet be available at the time the Code is adopted. In such event, the authority having jurisdiction may permit the use of the products, constructions, or materials
that comply with the most recent previous edition of this Code adopted by the jurisdiction.
[ December 30, 2004, 02:01 PM: Message edited by: kendog ]
al hildenbrand
Senior Member
- Location
- Minnesota
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Re: Arc Fault Protection
Ken,
I do have to apologize. After my first post in this thread, I have kind of had fun at your expense.
I'll include myself as a trouble maker with Roger .
Seriously, though, go over the language of what a closet IS and think of it as "If it is this & this, then that which is not included in what it is is what it is NOT."
This applies particularly well with 210.12(B). That way, the Code writers don't have to include a list of the rooms that a Bedroom is not, i.e., the Hallway, the Closet, etc.
On a side note, I caught your statement about inspecting mods. I'll bet that you get some really strange feedback from the purchaser/installers of the units you inspect. Having to make a "one-size-fits-all" unit that must be signed off on by any AHJ in the country makes my head ache, just to think about it.
Ken,
I do have to apologize. After my first post in this thread, I have kind of had fun at your expense.
I'll include myself as a trouble maker with Roger
.Seriously, though, go over the language of what a closet IS and think of it as "If it is this & this, then that which is not included in what it is is what it is NOT."
This applies particularly well with 210.12(B). That way, the Code writers don't have to include a list of the rooms that a Bedroom is not, i.e., the Hallway, the Closet, etc.
On a side note, I caught your statement about inspecting mods. I'll bet that you get some really strange feedback from the purchaser/installers of the units you inspect. Having to make a "one-size-fits-all" unit that must be signed off on by any AHJ in the country makes my head ache, just to think about it.
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