Arc Fault Protection

[charlie]

Re: Arc Fault Protection

Ken, I am glad I was off base about you.

In my opinion, if you put a receptacle in a closet and it is from the bedroom circuit, the receptacle must be AFCI protected. On the other hand, that receptacle could be on a circuit that does not feed the bedroom and it would not be required to be on an AFCI.

 

[hurk27]

Re: Arc Fault Protection

Boy I'm glad that this was clarified after Rogers post. I started to think I needed to GFCI protect my bedroom receptacles since they are off the bathroom.

 

[apauling]

Re: Arc Fault Protection

what's interesting about this argument, and as an inspector i agree that afci is not required in the closet, is that a closet outlet is the one where it would more lokely need afci protection as it is the most likely to have cords with objects on them, the original basis for the afci proposals.

ironic

paul

 

[charlie]

Re: Arc Fault Protection

paul, I can't disagree with you. Maybe someone will submit a proposal to add closets that open off the bedroom shall be on the bedroom circuit if any outlets are installed in them.

 

[aelectricalman]

Re: Arc Fault Protection

I dont understand why they didnt just go ahead and make all cirucits AFCI. Why just the bedrooms? Makes no sense. Is it just a trial run, so to speak.

 

[midget]

Re: Arc Fault Protection

The reason I heard was because people sleep in there, and if there was a fire, they might not wake up...so if there's an arc that trips the breaker, that trip might prevent a fire. In other part of the house...people aren't sleeping...so...does that make since to anyone? Or am I totally wrong? Are AFCI breakers required anywhere else?

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: Arc Fault Protection

Paul,

is that a closet outlet is the one where it would more lokely need afci protection as it is the most likely to have cords with objects on them

The only problem with that is the fact that the currently available AFCIs provide very very limited protection beyond the fixed wiring system. That is why the 2005 code (effective 1JAN08) will require combination type AFCI protection.
Don

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Arc Fault Protection

Midget,
Sleeping people are the reason for smokes in every bedroom, but I'm pretty sure AFCI protection in bedrooms was a coin-toss location.

AFCI isn't required anywhere else.

 

[Ed MacLaren]

Re: Arc Fault Protection

The reason I heard was because people sleep in there

The original research that led to the development of the AFCI resulted from incidents, many of them in Europe, involving electric blankets.

and if there was a fire, they might not wake up... ... In other part of the house...people aren't sleeping...so...does that make since to anyone?

It doesn't make sense to me. If arcing occurs anywhere in my home, I want that circuit de-energised immediately. My prediction is that will come eventually.

In the meantime, there is nothing stopping me from using AFCIs for all of my circuits. Actually, for the reason Don mentioned above, I haven't installed them.

What I do, which I think is more effective, is to check all appliance cords periodically, especially those that are concealed behind furniture.

Just last week, we were sitting playing cards in the dining room, when out of the corner of my eye, I saw the Christmas tree lights go off.
Upon investigation I smelled heated plastic and found the receptacle and plug supplying the tree was hot. The cheap (made in China) cord had arced inside the plug. My wife had bought it, and it's now in the garbage bin.

Ed

 

[kendog]

Re: Arc Fault Protection

just a thought if a AFCI doese what its suppost to you realy wouldn't be able to use them through out the home some equipment produce arcs under normal operation for instance power tools

[ January 03, 2005, 08:51 PM: Message edited by: kendog ]

 

[midget]

Re: Arc Fault Protection

Originally posted by don_resqcapt19:
Paul,

is that a closet outlet is the one where it would more lokely need afci protection as it is the most likely to have cords with objects on them

The only problem with that is the fact that the currently available AFCIs provide very very limited protection beyond the fixed wiring system. That is why the 2005 code (effective 1JAN08) will require combination type AFCI protection.
Don

2005 isn't in effect until 2008? Also, can you explain some more about the combination type AFCI protection? What do you mean? Is that like AFCI/GFCI combo or what? And what do you mean protection beyond the fixed wiring system?

 

[charlie]

Re: Arc Fault Protection

Ken, for the most part, they have engineered the false tripping out of the AFCIs.

 

[charlie]

Re: Arc Fault Protection

2005 isn't in effect until 2008?

That is correct, for that section. That will permit the manufacturers to get the kinks worked out of the combination type AFCIs.

can you explain some more about the combination type AFCI protection?

The combination type AFCI is "supposed" to protect appliance cords from parallel and series arc faults. The AFCIs that are being installed today will protect the circuit wiring from parallel arc faults and any ground faults but will not protect from series arc faults.

Is that like AFCI/GFCI combo or what?

An AFCI has electronics that look at the arc signature when the parallel arc exceedes 75 amperes. Additionally, the AFCI has circuitry that is very similar to a GFCI except it is set for around 30 to 50mA, depending on the manufacturer. That is why the grounded and grounding conductors can't touch just like a GFCI circuit.

And what do you mean protection beyond the fixed wiring system?

The AFCIs of today will only protect the wiring system in the building, not cords that are plugged into any receptacle outlets. The combination type AFCIs are supposed to protect the cords as well as the building wiring.

 

[hurk27]

Re: Arc Fault Protection

are supposed to protect the cords

H'mmmm
A little doubt huh!

Well Let's hope not, as it would be nice to have a device that we all can sleep easy with.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Arc Fault Protection

Midget wrote:
2005 isn't in effect until 2008?

This bears reprinting to make this particular peculiarity clear. Charlie mentioned it, just thought it bore some expounding on.

NEC-2005 210.12(B) Dwelling Unit Bedrooms. All 120 volt, single phase, 15- and 20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets installed in dwelling unit bedrooms shall be protected by a listed arc-fault circuit interrupter, combination type installed to provide protection of the branch circuit.

Branch/feeder AFCIs shall be permitted to be used to meet the requirements of 210.12(B) until January 1, 2008.

This code, 210.12(B) has the date contained within it.

Saying 2005 code isn't code until 2008 sounds like a very sweeping statement. 2005 code will be adopted as each AHJ is ready for it, if they want it.

I was floored to see a date, myself!

 

[hurk27]

Re: Arc Fault Protection

Why the 1999 had it in the same place for AFCI's

"1999" NEC 210-12(b) Dwelling Unit Bedrooms. All branch circuits that supply 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacle outlets installed in dwelling unit bedrooms shall be protected by an arc-fault circuit interrupter(s). This requirement shall become effective January 1, 2002.

[ January 04, 2005, 01:43 AM: Message edited by: hurk27 ]

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Arc Fault Protection

Because I've never opened a 1999 code book.
See why?

[ January 04, 2005, 08:19 AM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: Arc Fault Protection

Wayne,

A little doubt huh!

I think that there is room for a lot of doubt, based on what the manufacturers told us to get the original AFCI rule passed. The reason for the new combo type requirement is the fact that the ones on the market now cannot not provide the protection that was promised.
Don

 

[Ed MacLaren]

Re: Arc Fault Protection

The AFCIs of today will only protect the wiring system in the building, not cords that are plugged into any receptacle outlets

Can anyone explain how the AFCI, located back in the panel, would be able to "tell the difference" between an arc in the circuit wiring, and an arc in the cord, which, electrically, is just an extension of that circuit wiring?

Ed

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: Arc Fault Protection

Ed,
It has to do with the fact that the AFCI doesn't even look at the arc until it exceeds 75 amps. In most cases the impedance of the circuit will limit the current beyond the fixed building wiring to a level far below the 75 amps. The combo type AFCIs look at currents starting at 5 amps. Neither type directly detects the problems caused by a high resistance connection, which in my opinion is a much more likely condition than is a parallel fault. If a high heat producing connection exists, the AFCI only opens the circuit if the heat causes the fault to progress into a ground fault or a parallel arcing fault.
Don