Arc faults- Bedrooms and Smoke Detectors

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Re: Arc faults- Bedrooms and Smoke Detectors

GFI's won't do beans to protect a human if they're only touching the line and neutral.
 
Re: Arc faults- Bedrooms and Smoke Detectors

I'm not going to say to much about this subject but do you know that the 120 volt plug in type of air fresheners you use in your bathrooms cause far more fires than smoke alarms. Maybe we should be looking at them also. As for Nuisance alarms, maybe were not putting in the correct detectors in the correct areas. I know if it's a damp area(hot tub, outside a bathroom ect.) Should be using Photoelectric alarms. Most of us uses ionization type alarms. I try to use these everywhere else in the home unless gas is used.Then I might use a combination in this area. Sorry I got off the subject.
Bye now,
Jim
 
Re: Arc faults- Bedrooms and Smoke Detectors

Another concern is that a 240 volt or 277 volt electric heater in a bedroom is not required to be AFCI protected. This seems to be rather arbitrary, iilogical, and eclectic. I can even install a 240 volt receptacle and plug an extension cord into that. A big enough bedroom would need a 240 volt air conditioner or PTAC particularly if right underneath a roof.

Motels and dormitories are not required to have AFCI.

Also, an uninterruptible power supply essentially nullifies AFCI or GFCI that is located upstream.

I would not mind having to put a smoke alarm or carbon monoxide alarm on an AFCI if it had the following features:

1. Built-in emergency light. Some smoke alarms have this.

2. Power failure alarm. If the power fails in the middle of the night you do need to wake up.

3. Rechargeable battery.

One idea is that an emergency light that can run remote heads can be fitted with a buzzer from Radio Shack instead of an extra light. Whether the inspector thinks that it is a great idea or thinks that it may void the listing of the emergency light could be another story.
 
Re: Arc faults- Bedrooms and Smoke Detectors

Motels and dormitories are not required to have AFCI.
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They could be required if the have provisions for cooking as they will fit the provision in the definition of article 100

Dwelling Unit. One or more rooms for the use of one or more persons as a housekeeping unit with space for eating, living, and sleeping, and permanent provisions for cooking and sanitation.
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Re: Arc faults- Bedrooms and Smoke Detectors

Those dreaded scented plug ins :D Good point ;) Liquid and electricty what an oxymoron :eek:
 
Re: Arc faults- Bedrooms and Smoke Detectors

The power could fail because of an electrical fire. An AFCI does not prevent an electrical fire, it just keeps the fire from getting bigger. Also, the arc detection threshold in the present units is like 50 amps. That is a lot. Likewise, GFCIs do not stop you from getting shocked. They only shut off the juice before it kills you.

Now for a crazy idea. SquareD make 10 amp circuit breakers for their QO and NQOD panels. Some applications are:

1. The CPSC recommends that #14 copper knob and tube wiring be on a 10 amp circuit breaker, particularly if surrounded by thermal insulation.

2. For certain small loads a 10 amp circuit breaker provides added protection.

Now, why not supply the smoke and carbon monoxide alarms from a QO110 circuit breaker? This would theoretically exempt the bedroom smoke alarms from AFCI protection. Since only 12 smoke alarms and 6 other devices can be hard-wired together the total load is less than 1.5 amps in the case of First Alert brand.

This is just as much a technical exemption as a 240 volt heater or air conditioner in a bedroom.
 
Re: Arc faults- Bedrooms and Smoke Detectors

mc5w, your last post still didn't answer the question of why we need to wake up if the power is out, the battery back up will still provide alarm signaling in the case of an event.

When the power goes out at my house in the middle of the night it is simply a good reason to oversleep. (not really my internal alarm still gets me up)

Roger
 
Re: Arc faults- Bedrooms and Smoke Detectors

Originally posted by mc5w:
An AFCI does not prevent an electrical fire, it just keeps the fire from getting bigger.
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An AFCI is not going to prevent an arc but it is intended to prevent the electrical arc from igniting the building. (Assuming they work :D

Originally posted by mc5w:
2. For certain small loads a 10 amp circuit breaker provides added protection.
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10 amp or 100 amp breaker provide approximately the same short circuit current. (instantaneous trip)
 
Re: Arc faults- Bedrooms and Smoke Detectors

Do you want to get docked by your boss if you are late for work?

That article 210 does not recognize 10 amp branch circuits does not square with industrial practice with small motors. If all of the recptacles are disconnected from the knob and tube wiring then a 10 amp circuit breaker of fuse is often adequate.

A lot of people only have enough money for a 1/2 of a house rewire, so the usual strategy is to do something that removes most load i.e. receptacles from the K & T. I even tell people that it is just as much or more work to run just ground wires to the receptacles than it is to just put in new wiring. Also, installing new wiring for the receptacles is usually a lot easier than with ceiling lights. When the customer gets more money they can do the other 1/2 of the house rewire.
 
Re: Arc faults- Bedrooms and Smoke Detectors

Originally posted by mc5w:
Do you want to get docked by your boss if you are late for work?

That article 210 does not recognize 10 amp branch circuits does not square with industrial practice with small motors. If all of the recptacles are disconnected from the knob and tube wiring then a 10 amp circuit breaker of fuse is often adequate.
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mc your scrambling to find a way that a 10 amp breaker would be accapatable to protect K & T circuits in a house.

K & T circiruts in house do not typiclly feed motors as in industrial work.

K & T circuits almost always feed a combination of lighting and receptical outlets.

If you take the time to seperate the receptical outlets from the lighting outlets you might as well be replacing the K & T with NM.

I still find that the CPSC recomdation you passed as a recomendation to violate the NEC.

Personally I have no doubt that many times a 10 amp breaker would be suffecnt to carry the load.
:)
 
Re: Arc faults- Bedrooms and Smoke Detectors

Originally posted by iwire:
So the CPSC is recommending a violation of 210.21(B)(3)? :D
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Bob, that's a stretch, isn't it? 210.21(B)(3) lays down the receptacle rating requirements for branch circuits. It's not specifying ratings of branch circuits, it specifying the receptacle rating requirements. Since there's no 10-amp circuit rating, it's a mystery on what rating receptacle to put on that circuit. But mysteries aren't illegal. :D

Do you mean they're violating 210.52? Trying to cover 15 and 20's job's with a 10 amp is a violation of this code. ;)

[ March 31, 2005, 07:23 AM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]
 
Re: Arc faults- Bedrooms and Smoke Detectors

Oh man, not during my Art. 210 and CMP 2 bashing tyraid. :D
 
Re: Arc faults- Bedrooms and Smoke Detectors

Originally posted by mc5w:

Now for a crazy idea. SquareD make 10 amp circuit breakers for their QO and NQOD panels. Some applications are:


Now, why not supply the smoke and carbon monoxide alarms from a QO110 circuit breaker? This would theoretically exempt the bedroom smoke alarms from AFCI protection. Since only 12 smoke alarms and 6 other devices can be hard-wired together the total load is less than 1.5 amps in the case of First Alert brand.

This is just as much a technical exemption as a 240 volt heater or air conditioner in a bedroom.
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Why do people keep coming up with these stupid ideas trying to get out of something that the National Fire Protection Association has worked so hard to implement? Is it that we think that we are smarter than they are? Is it that we think they don?t know what they are doing?

The answer to all of the above questions is NO! It is just plain and simple case that we are bucking authority.

The National Fire Protection Association has acted as sponsor of the National Electrical Code since 1911. The original Code document was developed in 1897 as a result of the united efforts of various insurance, electrical, architectural, and allied interests.

Sounds like a time tested approach to me. Arc Fault is the best invention since loaf bread. I will personally be glad when we are required to AFCI protect every circuit in the whole house. Is there some way we can make fuses arc sensitive? Maybe make the whole world arc protected. I just love it!!!!!!!!!
 
Re: Arc faults- Bedrooms and Smoke Detectors

-scratch'in my head- Seems like I do remeber this being hashed-out in another thread.You remeber this JW ?
 
Re: Arc faults- Bedrooms and Smoke Detectors

Why do people keep coming up with these stupid ideas trying to get out of something that the National Fire Protection Association has worked so hard to implement?
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I don't really see where the NFPA had much to do with the AFCI rule. The code is written by the people who send in the proposals and comments. The big guns behind the AFCI rule were the people who have an economic interest in them.
Don
 
Re: Arc faults- Bedrooms and Smoke Detectors

You go don Sq d, G E,Ch they are on the code boards we are just a bunch of sparkys that have to comply with what they create :D
 
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