Arc flash lawsuit

[Strathead]

I agree that we need to change the culture of a lot of electrical contractors. This is changing and is coming down from larger shops and businesses, but it is showing up in smaller local shops.

I have taught many 70E classes for smaller local businesses and contractors and my local supply houses are getting on board with stocking arc flash and electrical shock PPE.

Changing the culture is a process and as with all processes it has to start somewhere.

As I teach these 70E classes I am amazed to see how many people truly don't understand the hazards that they are exposed to everyday with such activities as testing for voltage.

Chris

Comment to Texie above as well.

I believe that discussing it and keeping the topic in the front of our minds is an important step in changing the culture. I am intending to try to make sure it shows up in our "smaller shop" The OP for this thread reminded me of this and the additional discussion reinforces my resolve to study it. I acquired the bosses copy of NFPA 70E for light reading, for example.

 

[Strathead]

I'd be willing to bet in the long run that you will see several kinds of electricians.

The first group will be construction electricians. No need there to have much training or PPE equipment as they will never work on anything live. Pipe and wire guys.

The other group will be guys with training so they can work on live circuits. They will go in and test circuits to make sure they are not live before the non-trained guys go to work and do all the troubleshooting.

It will just end up being too expensive to train and equip all electricians to these standards, and probably not that great of an idea anyway. Guys not used to working in the heavy PPE are probably a hazard to themselves anyway.

Probably in the long run. Troubleshooting will be the biggest nightmare in your scenario. Noone wants to pay the real cost to fix things as it is.

 

[zog]

Without trying to be snide, your comment very much proves my point and disputes your original one. I understand the concepts of electricity, arc flash, energy potential, selective tripping, long time, short time and instantaneous trip functions of circuit breakers, ohms laws, Kirchoff's laws, etc. Much better than most of the guys I know, who are in the field. If we can not offer clear guidelines of when to, and when not to, wear various levels of PPE then I believe the default for many of them will be to just ignore it. (a problem just waiting to happen.

With proper training suited to the type of work one does you can have clear guidelines.

I also disagree with you regarding the likelyhood at least of a larger flash from the above 480volt example than the other.

Now you are changing things around, before you were comparing the potential energy in the 2 examples now you are talking about likelihood of an arc flash event happening, apples and oranges, hazard versus risk.

Since the energy transfered is inversely proportional to the resistance, the resistance is directly proportional to the area of contact and there is a FAR greater likely area of contact in the 400A panel.

Huh? Wha?

Exactly the type of comment that would make electricians less secure in their knowledge to just throw up their hands. I want to prevent this fatalism in the Company I work for.

Then get proper training for your people, not a lunch and learn, those are just PPE sales pitches.

 

[petersonra]

What I think is going to be interesting is to watch how people deal with things that just cannot be worked on live, at least not "legally". technically, you can't get near enough to them to even verify they are not live so you can't even work on them as unenergized equipment.

 

[jim dungar]

.... folks like Jim and Zog work work in heavy industry where this is part of the culture, which is good.

I work with customers like hospitals, paper companies, data centers, and those really heavy industries like 4-man electrical contractors and 15 employee machine shops. Recently I did an arc flash study as part of the new construction requirements for a masoleum and crematorium. A few months ago I presented an awareness session to a rural school district's custodians.

Comments like Jim's to go to a distributors lunch/show and tell on PPE are great in his culture

First I said go to training.

I suggested a lunch and learn to find what PPE options exist other than flash suits. I have seen the ones put on by Bussmann, Littelfuse, Oberon, Salisbury and even WH Brady. Yes, some are doing nothing but trying to get you to purchase expensive stuff, but I'll bet you do go to lunch and learns when you want to find out about making MV splices and the latest energy codes in relation to lighting.

but I can assure you that most of my local distrbutors (yes, big national guys) wouldn't even have a pair of 1000 volt gloves in stock.

You're right, they stock what the local electricians demand over the counter.

I have also stated there is real lack of training in arc flash and incident energy to the vast majority of otherwise "trained/licensed" electricians. We have a long way to go on this, but I don't see it happening.

It is spreading across the country, slowly and surely. There is no reason to wait for it to be forced on you.

 

[texie]

I work with customers like hospitals, paper companies, data centers, and those really heavy industries like 4-man electrical contractors and 15 employee machine shops. Recently I did an arc flash study as part of the new construction requirements for a masoleum and crematorium. A few months ago I presented an awareness session to a rural school district's custodians.

First I said go to training.

I suggested a lunch and learn to find what PPE options exist other than flash suits. I have seen the ones put on by Bussmann, Littelfuse, Oberon, Salisbury and even WH Brady. Yes, some are doing nothing but trying to get you to purchase expensive stuff, but I'll bet you do go to lunch and learns when you want to find out about making MV splices and the latest energy codes in relation to lighting.

You're right, they stock what the local electricians demand over the counter.

It is spreading across the country, slowly and surely. There is no reason to wait for it to be forced on you.

Jim, my comments were not meant to be flippant, and I apologize if it come accross that way. I'm in your camp on this. I was trying to convey my disapointment with the sad state of our industry culture on this issue.

 

[jim dungar]

Jim, my comments were not meant to be flippant, and I apologize if it come accross that way. I'm in your camp on this. I was trying to convey my disapointment with the sad state of our industry culture on this issue.

Roger that.:thumbsup:

 

[iwire]

I'd be willing to bet in the long run that you will see several kinds of electricians.

The first group will be construction electricians. No need there to have much training or PPE equipment as they will never work on anything live. Pipe and wire guys.

This could not be further from reality.

With a new building out of the ground you will be dealing with temp wiring which is live and the other trades will flip out if you shut it down. Many of our temp services are 100s of amps at 480 volt.

With a new building out of the ground there will be a point where the service is energized and you will have some live panels and some dead ones.

In the 'old days' we would just leave the main switchboard wide open and add feeders to it as we needed to. Now we close up the gear, put padlocks on all uncompleted sections and plan shutdowns to add more circuits.



Then there is remodeling of existing buildings where all you will do involves live circuits. Our workers are very well trained, they have to be as OSHA coming by is a very real possibility.

 

[wtucker]

Some food for thought:

The guy is suing Texas International Terminals, Ltd., but he works for Sullivan Interests (which appears to own Texas International Terminals, but appears to be a separate corporation). Makes me think that whoever told him to do the job wasn't his actual boss, but the facilities guy. So the employer is the one who should have provided the PPE to the employee.

Workers' comp limits the amount an injured employee can collect. But when the cause of the injury can be laid in the hands of another company, that third-party liability is unlimited. So, three things might happen: 1) The injured employee might reach into the deeper pockets to cover damages workers' comp didn't cover, 2) the workers comp carrier for Sullivan Interests might reach into those pockets to recover the money it's already paid out in the case, and 3) the injured emplolyee's wife, who has also suffered damages but who isn't an employee, can reach into both pockets.

Couple of years ago, an elderly couple in Connecticut drove their car into the water. One drowned and the other's injuries will require 24-hour care for the rest of her life. The family sued the town, saying the fire department should have rescued the couple sooner. Why? Greedy lawyers? Maybe not. Maybe because there was no money to cover the woman's care, and the family was grasping at straws.

 

[petersonra]

This could not be further from reality.

With a new building out of the ground you will be dealing with temp wiring which is live and the other trades will flip out if you shut it down. Many of our temp services are 100s of amps at 480 volt.

With a new building out of the ground there will be a point where the service is energized and you will have some live panels and some dead ones.

In the 'old days' we would just leave the main switchboard wide open and add feeders to it as we needed to. Now we close up the gear, put padlocks on all uncompleted sections and plan shutdowns to add more circuits.



Then there is remodeling of existing buildings where all you will do involves live circuits. Our workers are very well trained, they have to be as OSHA coming by is a very real possibility.

In the long run the cost of training all of these people will start to tip the balance toward training fewer people. That may be what you do now, but outfitting 100s of people with the training and gear is going to be insanely expensive. The cost is not going to decrease any either.

 

[jim dungar]

...but outfitting 100s of people with the training and gear is going to be insanely expensive. The cost is not going to decrease any either.

Our NFPA70E training has been incorporated into our normal safety training schedule. I would hazard a guess that other than the initial course we do not exert much more than 1hour per year on arc flash for the people that 'touch' electricity for a living. For most of our 'lesser' qualified people, refresher training might be only a 1 hour on-line course, just like it is for defensive driving.
Yes our technicians have PPE up to Cat 4, but again the yearly update for daily wear PPE replacement is not much more than our normal uniform service.

 

[iwire]

In the long run the cost of training all of these people will start to tip the balance toward training fewer people. That may be what you do now, but outfitting 100s of people with the training and gear is going to be insanely expensive. The cost is not going to decrease any either.

Actually what is insanely expensive is letting the guys go out, break the rules, get caught and fined, or worse break the rules, have lost time accidents which raises our 'mod rate' which can lock us out of bidding a lot of work.

Many GCs are requiring us to have our guys trained, RI requires 10 hour OSHA cards for all on a work site.

Obviously some commonsense is applied, a first year apprentice will not get in depth training on hot work as we would not let them work hot but they will get electrical safety training to basically to tell them what they cannot do.