Arc Flash Studies are Easy - NFPA-70E is Hard!

[jim dungar]

What are the rules about using pictures that people post here? Can I show the poor mouse in a powerpoint?

Briefly, pictures of people need their approval (unless they are public domain), pictures of dead animals usually serve little purpose, and there must be a topical story behind every picture (not just 'hey look at this').

 

[zog]

Well John and Zog,

Those definitions now have me about 99% convinced. Thank you! I am waiting for my requested official interpretation from the NFPA to make up the remaining 1%.

Let us know what they say, I am "only" 99% convinced myself.

So a few things for further clarification:
1) Based on those definitions, are we correct in saying that the EEWP's primary intent is to protect from Electrical Shock hazards? After all, we're wearing Arc Flash PPE w/o the EEWP.

130.1(B)(1) EEWP - When Required: When working on energized electrical conductors or circuit parts......Then go look at the definition of "working on energized electrical conductors or circuit parts" where it says "Coming in contact with energized electrical conductors or circuit parts with hands, feet, other nody parts (Wonder what that means?), tools, probes, or test equipment.

The way I read this is to rack or operate a breaker is not considered "working on energized electrical conductors or circuit parts" and does not require an EEWP

2) If "working on" means hands, feet, tools, etc coming in contact with the energized conductor, what about installing buckets in live MCCs? Is that "working on"? It requires insulated gloves. Does it require an EEWP? Just thinking out loud, if the bucket is out, the conductors are exposed, though if the bucket is deeper than 12 inches, then neither my body nor my tools are within the LAB. However, the bucket is somewhat of a probe, and you are installing parts onto a live service. I thought that was one of the pet bad practices the NFPA was trying to minimize. How about racking breakers? Unlike an MCC, if the breaker is racked out, the shutters should be down, so no conductors are exposed... Or do both of these fit the "removing or replacing components" part of the "working on" definition?

I think that depends on the configuration of the MCC and bucket, I still think no EEWP required but would not be suprised in NFPA interpreted it otherwise, thats a tough one. Routine task maybe? Standing permit?

3) How about opening 480V panels? This is interesting--Let's say an electrician is opening the panel for me for my arc flash study. We're within the LAB of conductors we might be exposed to, but since we're only doing visual inspection, we don't need an EEWP. Now if the panel is loose on the wall, and the electrician is going to tighten the mounting screws/bolts, then because he is working within 1 foot of exposed energized conductors, he needs an EEWP, or better yet, to put the panel into an electrically safe work condition. Here, he is not "working on" by the strict definition, but he "might be exposed" by 130.1(A).

Agree here too, not working "on".

4) Back on one of my original questions regarding operators doing LOTO for mechanics. I suppose that if no conductors are exposed, and they use the additional Try-Out test (as in Lock-Out Tag-Out Try-Out), then they don't need to visually verify and use a voltage detector (per 120.1) to make sure they got the right motor. The mechanic doesn't care if the switch broke and one phase is still hot, as long as the motor doesn't turn while he's changing the pump! Hence, while we're not sure that the source of energy has been removed, "it sure ain't working!" I can see that that is probably ok under this standard, but man, I'm not quite comfortable with that... a lot could go wrong (like what if it wasn't working in the first place--Try-Out doesn't prove anything!).

This is a topic many of my industrail customers had a hard time with in the past, most eneded up making a policy that only qualified electrical workers should be doing a LOTO invloving electrical compoenents. OSHA allows the lock out try out for non electrical work but I never liked it either.

PS. What are the rules about using pictures that people post here? Can I show the poor mouse in a powerpoint?

Technically those do not belong to me because I took them while working for a different company so they belong to the company that still does this training. If you like I can PM you the contact info and you can try to get permission to use them but I don't see that happening since you would be veiwed as thier competition. When you are selling a training course you need written permission for any photos or videos you use.

 

[cschmid]

When it comes to PPE required for arc flash what is the difference? You still need to follow what the label says, even if it is HRC 0 for the 277V breakers.

I live in the same world as you, the one where we have to wait until August to see if Favre is retiring on not, Skol Vikings!

lmao only in purple and gold country at least he did not do like he did in Green bay.

Now back to the topic. I do not have my NFPA 70E in front of me but you are saying they are working on the 2012 version all ready? how long have we been on the 09 I still use the 04? But I only see resistance not compliance it is amazing. I want to know for my knowledge as that is what is important for me. I want to educate the people around me not scare or get them all up in arms but to embrace the changes.

 

[zog]

lmao only in purple and gold country at least he did not do like he did in Green bay.

Now back to the topic. I do not have my NFPA 70E in front of me but you are saying they are working on the 2012 version all ready? how long have we been on the 09 I still use the 04? But I only see resistance not compliance it is amazing. I want to know for my knowledge as that is what is important for me. I want to educate the people around me not scare or get them all up in arms but to embrace the changes.

Proposals for 2012 were due a couple months back, I was part of a task force working on proposals and we ended up submitting about 30. 2012 version is due out fall of 2011.

There were some major changes in 2009 and it became effective and enforceable in late 2008 so I recommend getting caught up. Major changes to the tables and when they can be applied, all sorts of stuff. I will post a summary of the changes tommorow.

P.S. As of today it is Grandpa Favre, congrats Brett on the new addition to your family.

 

[cschmid]

Proposals for 2012 were due a couple months back, I was part of a task force working on proposals and we ended up submitting about 30. 2012 version is due out fall of 2011.

There were some major changes in 2009 and it became effective and enforceable in late 2008 so I recommend getting caught up. Major changes to the tables and when they can be applied, all sorts of stuff. I will post a summary of the changes tommorow.

P.S. As of today it is Grandpa Favre, congrats Brett on the new addition to your family.

thanks and I learned again today another day not wasted.