Are Electrical Engineers qualified persons?

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Calrissian45

Calrissian45

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Southern California
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Electrical Engineer
Is an Electrical Engineer a qualified person for working on exposed energized electrical equipment (e.g., inspections and voltage testing)?

My organization's Safety Officer won't let us purchase arc flash PPE and voltage rated gloves for our Electrical Engineers because he claims that only Electricians are qualified to work on or near exposed energized electrical equipment, per the NEC. He's trying to enforce his personal SOP where the Electrical Engineers have to instruct Electricians from a distance when inspecting and troubleshooting equipment.

Is there any NFPA, IEEE, OSHA, etc. documentation that indicates that Electrical Engineers are qualified to inspect exposed energized electrical equipment and test the voltage?
 
It would be your company policy that determines the qualifications. I tend to agree with the safety officer. However IMO an EE should be able to complete a training program which after successful completion would qualify him. This of course would need to be approved by your organization.

I do not believe there is any standard which would automatically qualify an EE to work on energized electrical equipment.
 
Calrissian45 said:
Is an Electrical Engineer a qualified person for working on exposed energized electrical equipment (e.g., inspections and voltage testing)?

My organization's Safety Officer won't let us purchase arc flash PPE and voltage rated gloves for our Electrical Engineers because he claims that only Electricians are qualified to work on or near exposed energized electrical equipment, per the NEC. He's trying to enforce his personal SOP where the Electrical Engineers have to instruct Electricians from a distance when inspecting and troubleshooting equipment.

Is there any NFPA, IEEE, OSHA, etc. documentation that indicates that Electrical Engineers are qualified to inspect exposed energized electrical equipment and test the voltage?
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I agree with MD84 but want to add that just being an electrician does not make them a qualified person either. The NFPA 70E has very specific training requirements to be considered qualified and has nothing to do with being an electrician, EE, or pipefitter for that matter. Anyone can go though the 70E training and be a qualified person. So if your safety officer is automatically considering electricians "Qualified persons" he is wrong.
 
It is up to your employer what it takes to be qualified.

If an EE couldn't be considered qualified, then they couldn't stand within the arc flash boundary. How could they survey to design something? Not practical to use an electrician to take direction from an EE and gather existing conditions that sometimes you don't even know what you are looking for until you see it.

I'm biased ....
 
ron said:
...
I'm biased ....
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So am I:thumbsup:

There is no NEC, NFPA, OSHA, or IEEE definitive standard to determine who is qualified. It is entirely up to the employer to determine if a specific employee has the skills, knowledge, and proper training for a particular task. It is not necessarily a broad general qualification either. Some employees may be qualified for certain tasks and not others. It is task specific.
 
ron said:
How could they survey to design something?
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Yep.

Safety people need to realize that NFPA70E specifically states it is possible to be qualified for one task but not another.
The engineer could be qualified, and appropiate proper PPE, for investigation but not for panel cover removal. The electrician might be qualified for 480V panel cover removal and voltage testing, but not for working with electronic protective relays or other equipment requiring 'computer software'.

Should we even mention that NFPA70E never uses the word electrician?
 
zog said:
I agree with MD84 but want to add that just being an electrician does not make them a qualified person either. The NFPA 70E has very specific training requirements to be considered qualified and has nothing to do with being an electrician, EE, or pipefitter for that matter. Anyone can go though the 70E training and be a qualified person. So if your safety officer is automatically considering electricians "Qualified persons" he is wrong.
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I am picking zags as the least biased answer. :cool:

No one is automatically qualified by their credentials, they need training for the specific tasks.
 
jim dungar said:
Should we even mention that NFPA70E never uses the word electrician?
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I found that 120.2(B)(1), Annex N.4.5(2), and N.4.5(6) use the word electrician in the 70E...

...but while you're at it...NFPA 70 (NEC) doesn't even use the word electrician except in the informative annex and the committee member listing...funny.
 
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One would hope that skilled tradesmen and educated professionals would be smart enough to know what they don't know and either learn what they don't know before engaging in some task, or find someone that does know to do it.

I have sometimes suggested that the difference between a pro and a hack is that the pro knows when he doesn't know.
 
cuba_pete said:
I found that 120.2(B)(1), Annex N.4.5(2), and N.4.5(6) use the word electrician in the 70E...

...but while you're at it...NFPA 70 (NEC) doesn't even use the word electrician except in the informative annex and the committee member listing...funny.
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True. I wonder if any jurisdiction actually adopts Annex H/Article 80. None that I know of.
 
petersonra said:
One would hope that skilled tradesmen and educated professionals would be smart enough to know what they don't know and either learn what they don't know before engaging in some task, or find someone that does know to do it.

I have sometimes suggested that the difference between a pro and a hack is that the pro knows when he doesn't know.
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I always start out my annual electrical safety training for building staff with the definition of a Qualified Person (per the NEC).

The IEC refers to individuals as a Skilled Person or Instructed Person.
 
cuba_pete said:
I found that 120.2(B)(1), Annex N.4.5(2), and N.4.5(6) use the word electrician in the 70E...

...but while you're at it...NFPA 70 (NEC) doesn't even use the word electrician except in the informative annex and the committee member listing...funny.
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The NFPA70E use of 'electrician' is in an informational note as an example. Likewise, the Annex N is only an example as indicated by its title.

The point is; all individuals need to be aware of electrically safe work practices and installation. A job title is meaningless, it is the activity or task, that is important.
 
jim dungar said:
The NFPA70E use of 'electrician' is in an informational note as an example. Likewise, the Annex N is only an example as indicated by its title.

The point is; all individuals need to be aware of electrically safe work practices and installation. A job title is meaningless, it is the activity or task, that is important.
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Yeah, you're right.
 
Not at all

Not at all

I had an EE come in to design and spec some MV power factorcaps and reactors one time. This wasbefore arc flash but we did have safety procedures for shutting down andworking on the system. My guys had opened loads and shutdown the substation, soafter all the lights went out we heard a loud G d D m it, and saw the EE on thefloor. He saw us pull the main and check with hot stick, but he did not waitfor us to discharge the capacitance in the wires between the switches. And thiswas the guy that was hired to SHOW US.
 
just the cowboy said:
I had an EE come in to design and spec some MV power factorcaps and reactors one time. This wasbefore arc flash but we did have safety procedures for shutting down andworking on the system. My guys had opened loads and shutdown the substation, soafter all the lights went out we heard a loud G d D m it, and saw the EE on thefloor. He saw us pull the main and check with hot stick, but he did not waitfor us to discharge the capacitance in the wires between the switches. And thiswas the guy that was hired to SHOW US.
Click to expand...

I was just showing you what happens when you're not careful and not following the rules.
 
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