Are isolated groung outlets necessary

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Are isolated ground outlets necessary to achieve clean power to our order taking and processing equipment in a fast food restaurant. We are using a 3kva dbl conversion ups conditioner and some inspectors want GFCI outlets throughout the store. Is there such thing as an isolated ground GFCI outlet?
 
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Could you give me a little info on why you feel this way.
We've required it for years or their warranty is void.
We are leary to change that unless we have some good verifyable reasons.
 

ryan_618

Senior Member
According to a study done by IEEE, IG receptacles used for the reduction of noise were found to be benificial about 1/3 of the time, 1/3 of the time there was no noticable difference, and the other 1/3 thye resulted in more electrical noise.
 

dbuckley

Senior Member
For IT systems, IG is not appropriate; if somehow an IG outlet makes IT work better then the real problem is the normal ground is busted.

The least bad approach is to use simplified P-A-N-I grounding (search this forum for it).

Breifly, put all your IT outlets marked and connected to one end of the ground bar, and all those horrible unclean kitcheny stuff on the other end of the ground bar, and have the neutral bond and GEC in the middle. If the panel isn't the service entrance then bring two greens in from the SE to the panel (again from either side of the neutral biond and GEC connection), and use two separate ground bars, one clean, one dirty.

If you are using a UPS, which I think you are, then adopt the same approach for the grounding of the UPS fed outlets. Bring a clean green to a small panel by the UPS thats just for the IT sockets, and feed it's ground bar from the clean green.
 

roger

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How many modern power supplies are connected to the EGC directly or even indirectly downstream of the Main panel?

Roger
 
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dereckbc

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Dominic Ramirez said:
Are isolated ground outlets necessary to achieve clean power to our order taking and processing equipment in a fast food restaurant.
No, in fact it is not possible for IGR to remove or reduce any type of common-mode noise, there are no active or passive components to do that. The only things that can remove common-mode noise is separately derived systems like transformers and dual conversion UPS.
 
roger said:
How many modern power supplies are connected to the EGC directly or even indirectly downstream of the Main panel?

LCDs, thermal printers, electronic switchboards, keyboards, PCs so probably 20 or 30. It varies from system to system.
 

roger

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Dominic Ramirez said:
roger said:
How many modern power supplies are connected to the EGC directly or even indirectly downstream of the Main panel?

LCDs, thermal printers, electronic switchboards, keyboards, PCs so probably 20 or 30. It varies from system to system.

Well wouldn't IG's be a non issue if this were not the case?

I guess my question is, why is sensitive electronic equipment still built this way?

Roger
 

haskindm

Senior Member
Location
Maryland
The main advantage to using IG receptacle is that you are allowed to run the isolated equipment grounding conductor all the way back to the ground/neutral bar in the "applicable derived system or service". See 250.146(D). Thus you would by-pass any sub-panels which may have improper ground/neutral connections putting "noise" (current) on the grounding conductors. If there are no sub-panels and/or no improper ground/neutral connections there is no advantage in using isolated ground receptacles. They are a Band-Aid to cover up improper installations.
 

charlie tuna

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Florida
i see the necessity for their use mainly in the medical field where absolute grounding is necessary to remove even static charges outside the electrical system's wiring.... where they terminate in their own ground system independent of any other ground..
 

dereckbc

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charlie tuna said:
i see the necessity for their use mainly in the medical field where absolute grounding is necessary to remove even static charges outside the electrical system's wiring.... where they terminate in their own ground system independent of any other ground..
Charlie care to explain? If I understand you correctly this does not comply with any code or pratice and would be very dangerous. Static does not need a low impedance path to earth, in fact 10-meg ohm resistors are used for the purpose.
 

mdshunk

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Right here.
BryanMD said:
If the term IG (and implied expectations of it) were instead substituted by the term "redundant ground"
Eh, maybe that would do it for some people.

When I hear "redundant ground", I think about Article 517 locations and not IG.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
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If I may throw in my 1/50 of a $, the IG method is supposed to appear to the connected equipment as a star-ground system, where every EGC is terminated at the same, well, terminal, and not depend on a web of EGC's and/or conduits.

The idea is to eliminate possible voltage-gradient-caused potential differences between the chassis of individual electronic devices. This was more important before UTP cabling became the norm, and shielded data cabling was popular.

We still see the effects of such problems (ground loops), when we receive posts about video hum bars and audible hum in AV and audio systems, respectively, where different circuits supply physically-separate electronic components.

We've certainly read enough threads discussing the need for EGC's run within conduit that we know conduit systems are less than 100% reliable for low-impedance nonding paths, and high fgrequencies are affected differently than 60Hz.

Is the IG system necessary today? Much less than in the past. By the way, if you're using NM and plastic boxes, you already have IG wiring, except for home-running the insulated EGC to the main grounding bus when you have sub-panels.
 
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mdshunk

Senior Member
Location
Right here.
BryanMD said:
I do too.

But when I open the panel where all the ground wires return to the same bar
I scratch my head.
That's brings me back to one of my original thoughts on IG recs. Give them an orange colored receptacle, and that'll shut 'em up.
 

roger

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BryanMD said:
If the term IG (and implied expectations of it) were instead substituted by the term "redundant ground"

Bryan, as Marc mentions, in 517.13 applications, the two (or even more) ground paths are intentionally attached at both ends of the run, this is the exact opposite of what you'd do with an IG.

With an IG, you'd intentionally keep them separated.

Roger
 
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