Are these breakers up to date?

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jerryalan

jerryalan

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Location
Perry, Mi. Shiawassee
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electrician
i get a picture of a panel, e-mail, and the question is asked, "Are these breakers up to date?"
and i'm not sure how to answer, so i reply, "35 years ago they were."
is there a better answer, or guide/ general rule of thumb as to when it's time to replace all the breakers in a panel?
i've seen pushmatic breakers and edison type fuses that appear to be in working order and suggest it's time to upgrade, but absent any obvious issues i can't think of an honest answer that would bear scrutiny. personally i would prefer to swap out old for new but is that the only approach?
 

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Looks to be an early split bus style panel. Likely Wadsworth. Breakers show me no indication of mfg. and are likely obsolete. Most mfg. list their breakers to life of 30-35yrs. Panels to 45-50 yrs. If these breakers had not been "exercised" since installation higher than average probability of failing to function properly. Seen this many time on old Crouse Hinds, Challenger and Cutler panels, overload and short circuit failed to trip.

Wadsworth had not mfg. a breaker since around 1970, but likely install before then, most popular during the 1950's. So even "if" you can get a "New" unused in box it is not a good option as it is already "old". Best option is to recommend to replace panel as both parts, breakers and panel, are beyond life expectancy.
 
I think they are more than 35 years old. Not sure exactly when NEC first prohibited split bus panels but thinking was at least sometime in 1970's.

1981 NEC would be 42 years old now.
 
ptonsparky said:
Latest and Greatest would include AFCI. (No, I am not suggesting that but if the goal is L&G)
Click to expand...
And there lies the issue. A simple panel update for $3-400 buck worth of materials turns into $1500 worth of materials because of the new mandated horse manure. Very disappointing.
 
ptonsparky said:
Now, do they need to be replace just because they are old?
IMO, No.
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Not just because they are old, but most very old ones failures are that they are failing to trip when need to and that can be dangerous. Some brands worse than others.
Have had when doing an upgrade (like for like, not afci) complaint that the breaker is now tripping and it never did before. Go check it and find the circuit is overloaded (metered) and has been that way (HO: "nothing new plugged in"). Old breaker faulty? Or new breakers too sensitive? You tell me.
4x4dually said:
And there lies the issue. A simple panel update for $3-400 buck worth of materials turns into $1500 worth of materials because of the new mandated horse manure. Very disappointing.
Click to expand...
Not unless you are extending the circuit only then afci requirement kicks in. Biggest cost overlook that is an automatic, is when updating and changing a receptacle, that is when it almost universally kicks in.
 
Fred B said:
Not unless you are extending the circuit only then afci requirement kicks in. Biggest cost overlook that is an automatic, is when updating and changing a receptacle, that is when it almost universally kicks in.
Click to expand...
Good to know. I don't sparky for anyone other than myself any more so at least I don't have to worry about it thank God.
 
ptonsparky said:
Now, do they need to be replace just because they are old?
IMO, No.
Click to expand...
The older I get, the more I sympathize with old gear still being useful... That said, the thing that makes breakers POSSIBLY bad with age is the increased likelihood that at SOME TIME in those years, it was subjected to abuse or damage.

Wadsworth, likely 1950s vintage, maybe 60s. I have seen many of these articles and web pages stating a "lifespan" on breakers of 30-40-50 years, everyone has a different opinion. I think a lot of that is from marketing stuff generated by breaker manufacturers to encourage people to rip and replace.

But I have never seen anyone suggest more than 50 years, and Wadsworth has been effectively defunct for that long (they technically liquidated in 1990, but had been shuttered long before that, in the early 70s). So any replacement Wadsworth manufactured breaker you can still find is ALSO at least past that 40 year mark, maybe older. It's worth noting that Connecticut Electric (aka UBI) sells replacement Classified breakers for Wadsworth panels. But you will pay $44 for a single pole 20A breaker, so there's that.

I tell people with Wadsworth, Frank Adams, Pushmatic and a few others that are not on the "Danger Will Robinson!" list that although it isn't imperetive that they be replaced, it is problematic to keep them because if something DOES go wrong, replacements are going to be hard to find and expensive.
 
I'd be mainly concerned with the mains.
You could call the utility and check the available fault current. Some old main breakers were only good for 5-10k of fault current.
Now if POCO has upgraded to a more modern transformer you could easily see over 10k at those mains.

Second issue with a split buss is the loading of the busses.
Looks to be 3 busses in that panel.
Little to no room to expand.
 
tortuga said:
I'd be mainly concerned with the mains.
You could call the utility and check the available fault current. Some old main breakers were only good for 5-10k of fault current.
Now if POCO has upgraded to a more modern transformer you could easily see over 10k at those mains.

Second issue with a split buss is the loading of the busses.
Looks to be 3 busses in that panel.
Little to no room to expand.
Click to expand...

If source is 50 kVA or less 120/240 single phase and distance to device is at least 25 feet or more (this would cover a majority of the single family dwellings out there with 200 amp or less supply conductors you likely are fine with 10kA rated devices.
 
norcal said:
Looks like a Wadsworth, since they are a defunct manufacturer no way they can be "up to date".
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What does "up to date" mean? Unless the manufacturer issues field engineering changes, almost by definition they must be "up to date", at least from the device perspective.

The questions to me are-
Are they functional? (e.g. will they trip when needed?)
Are they considered past rated end-of-life? (e.g. are parts likely to be breaking down due to age)
Are there external conditions which now make them unsuitable? (e.g. available fault current is higher)
Has something happened to the which renders them suspect? (e.g. prolonged high heat or many trip cycles)
Are they no longer appropriate for the application? (more of a design than device issue)

Might get the same answer in the end but IMHO it's better to look at the right questions.
 
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