Are "Wire Nuts" considered a "permanent connection"?

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No difference between crimps and wire-nuts

No difference between crimps and wire-nuts

Crimps and wirenuts are both listed as "pressure-type connectors" -- exactly the same thing.

On Ideal's website, both wirenuts and crimps have their listed combinations on the same document
 
ELA,
The NFPA may never define permanent in any of their documents. In referring to a standard that does not pussy-foot around try the NASA technical standard 4003 that defines the five classifications of bonding and clearly states detailed requirements for permanent and semi-permanent 'bonding' methods in 5.1 Bonding Methods.
"Equipment and structure with metal-to-metal joints that are joined by processes that transform the mated surfaces into one piece of metal, such as welding or brazing, are considered permanent and inherently bonded.
Semi-permanent joints are held together by screws, rivets, clamps, etc. Semi-permanent mating surfaces shall be cleaned of all insulating material before connection to provide a good electrical bond. Clamping pressure across a joint shall be adequate to assure a secure mechanical connection. Fasteners or their threads shall not be used as primary bonding paths. A good dc connection will not exeed the 2.5-milliohm limit for Class "R" bonds."

Well, Std-4003 doesn't say anything about wirenuts relative to permanent bonding either and neither does the Ideal Full Line Catalog. Ideal does refer to the 410's as "Designed for making fast, 'permanent', pressure-type connections" that are UL listed to 486C and CSA certified to C22.2 #188...if that helps. There does not appear to be other references to "permanent" for any other terminations including wirenuts in Ideals catalog.
 
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I had noted the UL486C reference but did not have a copy in order to check if it allowed wire nuts as permanent.

I believe the crimped sleves will satisfy them since it would require a crimper tool.

The ultimate goal here is the to have the equipment UL listed. ETL is involved as a third party since they are less expensive.

We will keep the pressure on them. Thanks for all of your input.
 
I agree that wirenuts are not permanent.

If you've created/manufactured/invented some sort of device or component that needs listing, would you be able to mimic a similar device or component's "permanent" methods and thereby pass muster of the ETL requirements? :-? :)
 
This device was previously listed under an earlier years version of UL864.
Now the company that built it is up for review under a newer version.

ETL has decided that their "opinion" is that it cannot connect using wire nuts even though that was good enough previously. They are the ones deeming wire nuts as temporary.

On one hand we could all agree that wire nuts are temporary. They are so handlily undone if you need to make a change.

One the other hand how many thousands of installations use wirenuts never expecting to have to ever undo the wirenut again? In my mind wirenuts are permanent enough.

Having a cord that can be accidentially unplugged is temporary. Having to use a tool to get into a box and undo wire nuts from wires qualifies as permanent!
Just cannot find that in "standard" terms.
 
I don't see this question as having anything to do with the NEC.

If I understand this thread a company is trying to obtain a new UL listing on it's product. If that is the case the NEC has little if anything to do with it.

If we stop and think about it have any of us seen a UL listed piece of equipment that used wire nuts for the factory connections.

I have not, I suspect UL does not allow wire nuts for the factory connections.

IMO acrwc10 hit the nail on the head.

acrwc10 said:
You might consider using these preinsulated crimp sleeves. By Ideal they may be the thing that will answer the requirement.
crimpsleeve.jpg
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These are the type of connections you find in UL listed equipment.

Dishwashers, washers, dryers, HVAC equipment etc. to name a few.
 
Of course this has a lot to do with the NEC. NEC governs most electrical installations. In some cases there are other standards that add to the requirements. Its just unforatunate that NEC does not clarify a permanent connection and whether or not wire nuts qualify.

The suggestion for the crimps is a good one.

When you mention factory connections, this does not involve that. The connection in question here is not inside the equipment itself but where the pigtail connects to the branch circuit. While dishwashers etc have crimps inside they still get connected to branch circuits using wire nuts do they not?
 
So if this connection is not in the equipment how far up the circuit do the connections need to be "permanent"? The set screw under the breaker is certainly not permanent.
 
ELA said:
Of course this has a lot to do with the NEC. NEC governs most electrical installations.
Click to expand...

We will have to remain in disagreement here.


Its just unfortunate that NEC does not clarify a permanent connection and whether or not wire nuts qualify.
Click to expand...

How can the NFPA clarify the requirements of a private organization?

When you mention factory connections, this does not involve that. The connection in question here is not inside the equipment itself but where the pigtail connects to the branch circuit. While dishwashers etc have crimps inside they still get connected to branch circuits using wire nuts do they not?
Click to expand...

That certainly changes things.

At that point the wire nuts are common.
 
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