Arguing with the electrical inspector

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colosparker

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I notice a lot of the discussion on this board has to do with electrical inspectors making a call on an inspection (and the angry contractor looking for reasons why the inspector is wrong). Keeping in mind that where I live we have 4 different AHJ's (City, County State and Federal) when it comes to electrical work. There are literally tens of thousands of different AHJ's throughout this big country. They all have the right to make their own rules that pertain to their jurisdiction. Some of them use the 2005 NEC. Some use 2002. Heck some of them are still on the 96 NEC. And some of them just make up their own rules.

I haven't been doing contractor type work in 15 years. But I do not recall arguing with electrical inspectors. They usually were more educated on their local rules and regulations than myself. An argument with an inspector could cost more in the long run, IMO. I know there are some inspection calls that have big economic consequences for a contractor and thus the need to dispute. But, for the most part, it's not worth the fight. Makes for interesting conversation on this board though.

Thanks to all of the electrical contractors on here inquiring about whether or not they are right on a matter pertaining to some installation turned down by an errant electrical inspector. Keep up the fight :wink:
 
It is not necessarily fighting with the inspector, it can be a debate/conversation.

The last few years across this country has seen an influx of inspectors who have not had the proper training. I for one can vouch for that as I have seen it first hand. Therefore it is the contractor's duty if nothing else, to help with the issue at hand and keep the inspector in "the know". If we fall over dead there is no sense in working this industry.
 
Colosparker, the days are gone that the inspector is more informed, educated, or knowlegdable than the electrician. (if it were really ever the case)

I make it my business to know all adopted an/or amended codes in the areas I work.

If an inspector is trying to B.S. me I will call him on it and challenge him.

If I drop the ball on an amended code that was made available to me and I missed or didn't pay attention to it, I'll will make it right.

The bottom line is an inspector can only inforce what is adopted as code or law (not his own whims, wants, or whishes) or anarchy is the end result.

Roger
 
Re: Arguing with the electrical inspector

colosparker said:
There are literally tens of thousands of different AHJ's throughout this big country. They all have the right to make their own rules that pertain to their jurisdiction.
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The AHJ is granted by legislative action. In my state the state inspector is the AHJ, whereas the local inspector is not. I think you'll find this is true in most areas.

The local inspectors do not have the right to make their own rules. Only the legislative bodies have the right (and duty) to make rules (laws).

I do agree with the rest of your statement.

I also prefer spirited debate. If you talk to an inspector, you will find out most are open minded, and a good mutual learning experience will ensue.
 
Re: Arguing with the electrical inspector

tshea said:
The local inspectors do not have the right to make their own rules. Only the legislative bodies have the right (and duty) to make rules (laws).
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tshea,
I did not state the "local inspectors" have the right to make their own rules. The AHJ does have that right. Again, not every jurisdiction is the same. I speak from my experience with AHJ's. They can and do make their own rules.
 
roger said:
Colosparker, the days are gone that the inspector is more informed, educated, or knowlegdable than the electrician.
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Roger,
I disagree with that as a general statement. Most electrical inspector are or have been electricians themselves. They, like everyone else, make mistakes. Sometimes though, I think electricians assume to quickly that they are right because the NEC says so, yet in reality there are local codes which can and do supersede. I also think a electrical inspector has the right to use their discretion to some degree when issues are gray and not so black and white.
 
Makes me glad the NEC is adopted statewide here. The AHJ is the state unless a city gets permission to do its own inspections. Even then, a local AHJ can't amend the NEC. Sometimes, though, the local AHJ will have ordinances along the lines of "if you do a service upgrade, then you must also (for example) install GFCIs in the bathrooms, make sure at least one kitchen circuit is 20A, etc."

The only problem I've had with inspectors overstepping their bounds is when they tagged me to fix pre-existing code violations that I had nothing to do with. Just because I do work somewhere doesn't make me responsible for every pre-existing code violation in the building.
 
Have very few problems with inspectors.Do the job right and if you missed something that he sees then fine ,he either will trust to to fix it or tag you.If he makes a wrong call then call him.Very seldom that this needs to end in an argument.If he is right he will back it up with code number.I love it when all the inspector can find wrong is you missed 1 screw on a lay in fixture. :D
 
colosparker said:
Sometimes though, I think electricians assume to quickly that they are right because the NEC says so, yet in reality there are local codes which can and do supersede.
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I do not think any of us has a problem with an inspector enforcing all the applicable rules, the NEC and any local adopted codes as well.

What many of us have a problem with is inspectors trying to enforce what they feel is right.

We have had inspectors at this site that felt they where enforcing things that that NEC forgot. :roll:

colosparker said:
I also think a electrical inspector has the right to use their discretion to some degree when issues are gray and not so black and white.
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Now we are getting into the area that brings strong feelings.

As you said all areas are different so I can't really comment on your situation.

In my state the State is the AHJ, the local inspectors are inspectors not AHJs.

The NEC does not grant permission for inspectors to give 'special permission' etc.

Once an inspector convinces themselves that they have the ability to make rules IMO we have a problem.

I always look at it like the States law makers and the police.

The police can only enforce the rules made by the law makers, they can not add additional laws when the mood strikes them.
 
bphgravity said:
Arguing with an inspector is like wrestling a pig in the mud....

...after awhile you realize the pig likes it! :twisted:
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That has to be the best way I have ever heard that point put.There are AHJ`S that live for this.I for one believe that if you have a point to make to an AHJ don`t try and be the bad A- -.Bring your point out and ask for thiers.To argue even if you win will just bring the rath down on you later down the road.It is easy to say call the AHJ on that or he`s wrong and tell him or her.That is the wrong approach.Gain the respect and the sign offs will follow.
 
pierre, you said that there was a influx of inspectors that do not have proper training, and you can vouch for it first hand, I agree with you but I also see the same situation with contractors first hand everyday
 
MPD
You are absolutely correct. I can honestly say that our industry (at least in NY State) has been very slow to keep the education in line with the technology and other changes our industry has experienced in the last 10 years or so.
In our area, there are many contractors and men in the field that do not even know what year code we are referencing... there are many that do not even know there is a residential code in our state. So, are they even using a code book. How many times have I heard a guy say that he has the new 2004 NEC...
 
ryan_618 said:
roger said:
Colosparker, the days are gone that the inspector is more informed, educated, or knowlegdable than the electrician. (if it were really ever the case)
Roger
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Gee, thanks pal! :( :lol: :wink:
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Ryan, you know I still love ya.
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Roger
 
As a electrical contractor, I've had more than a few "arguments" with electrical inspectors. Why? Because they were wrong AND what they thought they knew and what they "knocked down" would have cost way to many dollars to change. When the installation was fully code compliant to begin with.

Contractors do not have to "lay down" just because a AHJ says so. No way, they have review boards and they have bosses.

As contractors we all make the "Just because I say so" change for an AHJ , most of the time its minor and reasonable.

The best electrical inspector I ever knew called me "out" once and ridiculed me for installing a 480 service on a building that already had a 120/240 service. His opinion, "THEY WERE NOT GROUPED!!!"

We all ended up at the building department for a meeting with other inspectors who had "called around", even to the chief electrical inspector of the State.

It was a very embarrassing day for that inspector. I prevailed.

I didn't blame him for his mistake. Why? Because he had been "persuaded" by an AHJ from a city near by that all services must be grouped. That other AHJ caused much division in the other jurisdictions near by even to the day he retired.

He refused to accept anyone elses opinion, even the chief electrical inspector of Michigan, as well as many other AHJ's who disagreed with him.
 
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