Art. 110.12(C)

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allenwayne said:
Bob I didn`t mean pressure wash them in the panel.What I do is remove a new set of panel guts at the shop and swap out on site.then the painted panel guts are put back in the can from the replacement guts.They get stacked and when there are enough (which doesn`t take long).And the guys in the warehouse are slow they pull the buss bars clean them and they are put back together checked for tightness and reused.

We already got paid to replace them so that was sheer profit.We have salary guys that do this, so they don`t add any cost.We have the guts cans and covers.So whats nuts 100 % profit on the next job.??????
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So what you are saying is that the next unsuspecting homeowner gets a panel that has been through a paint/remove/clean/reinstall cycle that was performed by people who are not using factory approved techniques or subject to factory inspections.

You get the benefit of 100% profit on the next job and the customer for the next job gets stuck with a panel that should probably be peddled on EBay as a used panel.

When I was working in the defense industry, people were sent to jail for delivering product that had been mistreated and misrepresented in such a manner.
 
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Take your panties out of a wad :) The OP was about cleaning the paint off a panels buss bars.If that was done would it be any different.The HO would not know that the panel in the house was painted and cleaned.My whole point was that there is a way to clean the painted buss bars.SHEEESSSSHHHHH
 
allenwayne said:
Bob i appreciate your opinion that it is a bad plan but that is what that is your opinion.Same as mine that there is nothing wrong with recycling these painted panels.No chemicals, no paint, no problem.
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It is not just my opinion.

Did you ask the panel manufacturer for their opinion?

How do you get around the NEC rules that prohibit dry location equipment from being exposed to water?

You do realize that water is a corrosive agent?
 
allenwayne said:
The HO would not know that the panel in the house was painted and cleaned.
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EXACTLY!

They paid for a new product and you are giving them something less than that so you can pocket the cash.

Nice move:roll:


My whole point was that there is a way to clean the painted buss bars.
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Maybe, but I will bet it is not with a pressure washer.

SHEEESSSSHHHHH
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Did you honestly think we where going to say it was a good idea to pressure wash a panel?
 
I'm not going to say a manufacturer will or will not go along with pressure washing the busses but, IMO, selling them after they have been contaminated and cleaned with no diclosure of this to the customer is along the same ethical standards of selling Katrina (any flooded) cars under false pretenses (no disclosure of the damage to the buyer) doesn't it?


Roger
 
Most of the panels we deal with have a cover inside that is also enclosed in a box that is nearly perfect fit for the inside of the panel. We may have to alter it a bit but it works fine.

However, I did have one panel that was already done...someone removed the cover and sprayed inside....we had to redo it all because it was not a simple fix...in the end the client paid for our time and the new panel.

For which he promptly deducted from the painters invoice I would guess.
 
I think almost every spec book list with the statement, "All materials shall be in new condition, unless otherwise noted", or similar.
 
iwire said:
EXACTLY!

They paid for a new product and you are giving them something less than that so you can pocket the cash.

Nice move:roll:




Maybe, but I will bet it is not with a pressure washer.



Did you honestly think we where going to say it was a good idea to pressure wash a panel?
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Again Bob that is your opinion, as to your not believing it was done only with water well that seems a offensive statement.I have always tried to tell all on this forum what I have believed.As far as water being a corrosive agent.... Show me the facts !!!!! What says water is corrosive.The NEC deals with facts.No chemical agents are allowed to clean a panel.Is water what we drink day to day a chemical agent ????

Did I honestly think that the people on this forum think that what I said about pressure washing a panel to be a good idea...... NO I didn`t, but show me proof that it is not allowed and I will eat crow.Have a good new year:)
 
allenwayne said:
These 200 amp homeline panels we use have a 1 piece assly.that is removed by removing the bonding screw and one center screw and they slip out of the tabs in the can.

we have recycled probably 2 maybe 300 panels doing this.With the price of 1 panel X maybe 300 + panels that`s a hunk of change.
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Two solutions 1) take the recycled panels and install them on jobs you know they are going to be painted, then replace them with new ones.
that way you have no loss at all.
2) since the panel guts come out so easy take them out ahead of time and store them with the covers. That way all you are cleaning is the can.
It would seem simple to just replace the guts and back charge the painter.Then pitch the old one in the trash. That panel new is only about 100bucks hardly worth the liability.
 
allenwayne said:
Again Bob that is your opinion,
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Yes it is my opinion that;

Pressure washing the containments off with tap water.

allenwayne said:
What I have found is that even a water/latex paint can be cleaned with no chemicals.A pressure washer does a great job.Drywall texture comes right off with a rag and water.
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Replacing the panel into service.

allenwayne said:
I for one don`t have a problem with removing the buss bars from a standard residential panel and pressure washing them with plain water.Reinstalling them and I sleep soudly that this is a safe practice IMHO.
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Not informing the owners the panels had been damaged

allenwayne said:
The HO would not know that the panel in the house was painted and cleaned.
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Pocketing the money given to you for replacement.

allenwayne said:
We already got paid to replace them so that was sheer profit.We have salary guys that do this, so they don`t add any cost.We have the guts cans and covers.So whats nuts 100 % profit on the next job.??????
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is a lousy business practice. That is my personal and professional opinion.

allenwayne said:
as to your not believing it was done only with water well that seems a offensive statement.
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I never said that it was not done with plain tap water.

What I was pointing out is that tap water itself is a corrosive agent.

Or have you never seen rust?
 
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allenwayne said:
...show me proof that it is not allowed and I will eat crow...
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110.11 Deteriorating Agents. ... Equipment identified only as ?dry locations,? ?Type 1,? or ?indoor use only? shall be protected against permanent damage from the weather during building construction.
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.................
 
allenwayne said:
I have many painting contractors come unglued when back charged for contaminated panels.Especially when the backcharge is as much as the check they were waiting on.
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This doesn't sound like the cost of replacing the bus with either new or old parts. This sounds more like the cost of panel replacement. If you actually replace the panel then there is no problem but if you only charge for doing it there could be a problem. This would not only be unethical but illegal.

If your invoice for back charges explains that the panel was repaired with used parts and all the charges were for labor ( washing & replaceing ) then all you have to worry about is Code compliance. This also could be bad because you have admitted to a code violation in writting three hundred times.

Why not just get with the builder ( builders) and decide who is responsible for covering the panel before the painting starts and make sure the responsible party is informed. No panels get painted and none need to be replaced.

If this has happened hundreds of times then the problem needs to be addressed up front so it doesn't happen again .
 
How about a sort-of related question:

Let's suppose we're upgrading a relatively modern 100a service to a 200a. If the existing panel is a brand still in production, I would say that we can save the customer a little money by using the same brand of panel and re-using the existing breakers where appropriate.

Does anyone agree or disagree?
 
I have done this AFTER talking to the HO, and explaining the options. a) all new breakers, at $xx per breaker, but they have all new, or b) reuse breakers where I can save money, no warrenty on old breakers. I also have my boss OK it on a case-per-case basis. I recomend all new, but give them the option.
 
Larry

Larry

IMO,,,

I see no problem with that if: 1) I explain it to the homeowner first 2) I make sure the breakers I am using are in good working condition, no burns, screw tighten properly, breakers seats tight in panel etc, I can make the breaker open with short. I have not violated any UL rule nor have a made modifications on the units in question, they are just simply used.
 
LarryFine said:
How about a sort-of related question:

Let's suppose we're upgrading a relatively modern 100a service to a 200a. If the existing panel is a brand still in production, I would say that we can save the customer a little money by using the same brand of panel and re-using the existing breakers where appropriate.

Does anyone agree or disagree?
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I agree that you can use the old breakers but you can't charge the customer for new breakers and not deliver. You could even charge the same price as normal , just note on the estimate that you will be using existing breakers.( not ethical but not illegal ). As I see it you get into trouble when you promise goods or services and don't deliver and you charge anyway.

What I was getting at earlier, that just seemed like a high price for washing a bus bar. If I was a painting contractor no one would get away with back charging me that much unless I could see the invoice for repairs needed. If a new panel was indicated then I would expect to see a new panel installed.

I don't pay any back charges without proof. I don't want to see any ambiguous numbers pulled from " you know where ". I want to see an invioce with materials & labor cost.

We electricians think it's the painters job to mask the panel but I think for it to be completely legal ( to back charge ) it would need to be stated in the contract. The painter may think it's the electrician's job. This is where the GC should earn his money. There should be no need to change out 2 or 3 hundred panels.

I'm not that fond of General Contractors anyway.
 
I meant to post this yesterday but the tide was right and the reds were biting.

These panels that have been painted are cardboarded on the rough in.What happens between that time and trim out when they are found painted is not within our control.Remember these are not one house being built here another there.These are entire blocks built at the same time so we might have 100 or so houses going to trim within a 2 or 3 week span.

We replace the guts with brand new guts so as not to tear walls to pieces.So the painter is paying for and the homeowner are getting a new panel minus the can.BTW the paying of backcharges isn`t an option for them.We get a PO from the builder and the monies are just deducted from the check they recieve along with a back charge slip.Same as if we have to do drywall damage for a missed wire the monies rae just taken.Now if on trim it is found that there is damaged wiring the entire back charge goes to the party that caused the damage,usually the framer that came back for changes or punch out.They pay for our work and the drywall repair and the painters.

Maybe some feel that cleaning the buss bars and reusing them isn`t a good practice but that are just opinions,like I have mine.

It doesn`t take long for a painting contractor to make the guys on the jobs mask off panels @ $695.00 / panel .They mask everything else why not a panel.
 
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