Art. 210.8 2020 changes

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Rick 0920

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Now that receptacles 125 V through 250 V need GFCI protection in certain areas, I have a question for the experts. I think it was the intent of the CMP to provide GFCI protection for all outdoor electrical cord and plug connected equipment. But a portable generator when wired correctly, would use a flanged inlet, which by definition is NOT a receptacle. I will install a GFCI 2-pole breaker in any of these installations and just incorporate this cost in my bill. But I do think this needs to be added to the next code change. What do you guys think?
 
I see no reason to provide GFCI protection for a flanged inlet. The circuits being fed by the generator that already require GFCI protection will have it. Same would be true for circuits requiring AFCI protection.

Welcome to the Forum. :)
 
The generator has it's gfci protection for the devices on it. The flanged inlet is not delivering electricity to the generator so why would you need gfci protection
 
Dennis Alwon said:
The generator has it's gfci protection for the devices on it. The flanged inlet is not delivering electricity to the generator so why would you need gfci protection
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I may be wrong, but I don't think all portable generators have GFCI protection for their 250 V devices, only for the 125 V devices. Thank you for the input.
 
infinity said:
I see no reason to provide GFCI protection for a flanged inlet. The circuits being fed by the generator that already require GFCI protection will have it. Same would be true for circuits requiring AFCI protection.

Welcome to the Forum. :)
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Thanks for the input and the welcome.
 
Rick 0920 said:
I may be wrong, but I don't think all portable generators have GFCI protection for their 250 V devices, only for the 125 V devices. Thank you for the input.
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Yes but how is a gfci in the panel going to protect the gfci on the genny????? It can't
 
Dennis Alwon said:
Yes but how is a gfci in the panel going to protect the gfci on the genny????? It can't
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I'm thinking more along the lines of a homeowner. GFCI protection for personnel. We can wire everything properly but if a homeowner cranks up his generator first and then goes to insert the cord into the flanged inlet in inclement weather, I could foresee a hazard for electrical shock. I know it may sound like I'm getting carried away with GFCI protection, but I think that's the direction that the NEC is going. Why do we need to protect a duplex receptacle 10' up on the ceiling where a garage door motor is plugged in to? Is it to protect the Darwin's of the world that want to weedeat in a lighting storm? :)
 
You're speaking hypothetically and I do see your point but any code change should be backed up by real world substantiation. For that reason unless there is data to show that people plugging into inlets are getting shocked or killed then there is no reason for a code change.
 
Rick 0920 said:
I'm thinking more along the lines of a homeowner. GFCI protection for personnel. We can wire everything properly but if a homeowner cranks up his generator first and then goes to insert the cord into the flanged inlet in inclement weather, I could foresee a hazard for electrical shock. I know it may sound like I'm getting carried away with GFCI protection, but I think that's the direction that the NEC is going. Why do we need to protect a duplex receptacle 10' up on the ceiling where a garage door motor is plugged in to? Is it to protect the Darwin's of the world that want to weedeat in a lighting storm? :)
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There should never be power coming to the flange inlet from the panel, so I am not sure I get you on how this can be an issue. Even with a gfci in the panel the generator is the power source and if something goes awry then how would the gfci trip? The gfci is after the inlet....

We need protection on a garage door receptacle because homeowners have a habit of adding an extension cord from any outlet they can find to another area of the garage.

Rick I just don't see this as an issue. You can write a proposal but you will need to substantiate it however IMO, it will be surprised if it got approved
 
Dennis Alwon said:
There should never be power coming to the flange inlet from the panel, so I am not sure I get you on how this can be an issue. Even with a gfci in the panel the generator is the power source and if something goes awry then how would the gfci trip?
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What he is saying is that someone starts the generator and then with the generator running they plug the cord into the inlet creating a potential shock hazard. I do not see an issue.
 
infinity said:
What he is saying is that someone starts the generator and then with the generator running they plug the cord into the inlet creating a potential shock hazard. I do not see an issue.
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Yes but the shock issue is on the wrong side of the gfci. Am i missing something
 
Rick 0920 said:
Now that receptacles 125 V through 250 V need GFCI protection in certain areas, I have a question for the experts. I think it was the intent of the CMP to provide GFCI protection for all outdoor electrical cord and plug connected equipment. But a portable generator when wired correctly, would use a flanged inlet, which by definition is NOT a receptacle. I will install a GFCI 2-pole breaker in any of these installations and just incorporate this cost in my bill. But I do think this needs to be added to the next code change. What do you guys think?
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GFCI breakers are marked line and load and are not permitted to be backfed.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
Why would a GFCI breaker be marked line and load? Where are they marked
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Take a look at this IAEI article.
iaeimagazine.org

Backfeeding Ground-Fault Circuit Breakers

iaeimagazine.org iaeimagazine.org
What about Ground-Fault Circuit Interrupters?
MCBs may also be equipped with ground-fault protection for personnel, in which case they are called ground-fault circuit interrupter (GFCI) circuit breakers. GFCIs have a nominal 5 mA ground-fault trip level. Once again, because of the low ground-fault trip level of these circuit breakers, their electronic circuitry must be line-powered. Similar to MCBs equipped with GFPE, these circuit breakers also have a distinctive white “pigtail” wire intended for connection to the panelboard neutral bar. Like MCBs with GFPE, they will be damaged under a ground-fault condition if they are backfed. For this reason the terminals on these circuit breakers are also marked “line” and “load.”
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Usually there is a sticker on the front or embossing that says LOAD on the terminals. The pigtail says LINE.

GFCI receptacles I thought now have a feature where they wont reset if LINE and LOAD are reversed.
 
Yet another item that the CMP did not think through in the wording of this. I don't think their intent was for this to apply to an inlet. I guess it also could be argued that an "inlet" does not meet the definition of an outlet in Article 100. Kind of a moot question as GFCIs can't be back fed anyhow.
 
I would never had thought to back feed a gfci but I get it. Interesting that the electronics in a gfci receptacle don't mind a mis-wiring but the breakers would fail.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
Yes but the shock issue is on the wrong side of the gfci. Am i missing something
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This is how I'm reading it. The generator is putting out 120/240 volts, the cord is already plugged into the generator receptacle, he's saying that when you plug the cord into the inlet with the generator running you might somehow get shocked from the energized cord.
 
infinity said:
This is how I'm reading it. The generator is putting out 120/240 volts, the cord is already plugged into the generator receptacle, he's saying that when you plug the cord into the inlet with the generator running you might somehow get shocked from the energized cord.
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Yes that is possible true but how would the gfci, if it could be backfed, protect you from that. Isn't the gfci he is proposing in the panel as the transfer breaker?
 
This would have nothing to do with 210.8 and your backfed gfi would do nothing to protect the inlet or the generator. If you were making a proposal it would be for 445.20
 
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