Art. 410.4 D

Status
Not open for further replies.
B

Ben Trueblood

Member
Looking at this article I see that I am allowed to install a surface mounted luminare in the typical restricted zone.
1. If the surface luminare is in this area does it have to be GFCI protected?
2. If it does have to be GFCI protected can I feed it from the basin receptacle as long as the basin receptacle is exclusive to the one bathroom and not jumpered to any other additional basin receptacles?

Thanks
 
Ben Trueblood said:
Looking at this article I see that I am allowed to install a surface mounted luminare in the typical restricted zone.
1. If the surface luminare is in this area does it have to be GFCI protected?
Click to expand...

I do not understand this as an NEC requirment, see 210.8. I know some manufactures require it on exaust fans and such and if the manufacture requires it NEC will enforce it.


Ben Trueblood said:
2. If it does have to be GFCI protected can I feed it from the basin receptacle as long as the basin receptacle is exclusive to the one bathroom and not jumpered to any other additional basin receptacles?
Click to expand...

210.11 does have an exception that leads to 210.23(A)(1) & (2) that is cord equipment and fastened equipment. The rule appears to be bath receptacles can supply bath receptacles only, multiple baths would be okay but receptacles only
 
are you suggesting that a gfci protected receptacle in a bathroom may or may not protect a luminaire??
 
Ben Trueblood said:
1. If the surface luminare is in this area does it have to be GFCI protected?
Click to expand...
Not by the Code. If the luminaire's instructions say to GFCI protect it, then, yes.
Ben Trueblood said:
2. If it does have to be GFCI protected can I feed it from the basin receptacle as long as the basin receptacle is exclusive to the one bathroom and not jumpered to any other additional basin receptacles?
Click to expand...
If the 20 amp circuit supplying that one bath supplies no other "outlets" outside of that one bath, then, yes, the "receptacle outlet" GFCI can provide the protection for the luminaire.

The 2005 NEC Handbook has a nice passage that attempts explanation of 410.4(D).
 
tryinghard said:
some manufactures require it on exaust fans and such and if the manufacture requires it NEC will enforce it.
Click to expand...
The UL White Book (Guide Information for Electrical Equipment), in the classification FANS, ELECTRIC (GPWV) states:
Ceiling-insert fans, wall-insert fans, and ceiling-insert fan/light combinations intended to be mounted over bathtubs, showers, or within the zone above the bathtub and shower area as defined by Article 410 of the NEC, are marked ??Acceptable for use over a bathtub or shower when installed in a GFCI protected branch circuit.?? These products are investigated to determine the effects of moisture (dampness or wetting), such as shower spray.
Click to expand...
I take the UL Guide to say two things:
  1. If the exhaust fan is intended to be mounted over bathtubs, showers or within the zone above the bathtub or shower area, then the exhaust fan will be so marked
  2. GFCI protection is required (not by the Code or manufacturer, but by UL).
A simple exhaust fan, with no marking to protect it with a GFCI if mounted at the bathtub or shower, is an exhaust fan that has not been built for installation at the bathtub or shower.
 
al hildenbrand said:
...If the 20 amp circuit supplying that one bath supplies no other "outlets" outside of that one bath, then, yes, the "receptacle outlet" GFCI can provide the protection for the luminaire.

The 2005 NEC Handbook has a nice passage that attempts explanation of 410.4(D)
Click to expand...

I have not looked in the handbook yet but 410.4(D) has no linkage to 210.11(C)(3). 210.11(C)(3) does link to 210.23(A) through its only exception that says, "...outlets for other equipment...shall be permitted to be supplied in accordance with 210.23(A)."

But 210.23(A) also has an exception that says, "...bathroom branch circuits required...by 210.11(C)...(3) shall supply only the receptacle outlets specified in that section." "That section" referred to in 210.23(A)'s exception is 210.11(C)(3) and regarding receptacles it clearly states "shall have no other outlets."

210.23(A)(1) & (2) can be allowed but I have to say no light fixtures with the bathroom receptacles.
 
tryinghard said:
I have not looked in the handbook yet but 410.4(D) has no linkage to 210.11(C)(3). 210.11(C)(3) does link to 210.23(A) through its only exception that says, "...outlets for other equipment...shall be permitted to be supplied in accordance with 210.23(A)."

But 210.23(A) also has an exception that says, "...bathroom branch circuits required...by 210.11(C)...(3) shall supply only the receptacle outlets specified in that section." "That section" referred to in 210.23(A)'s exception is 210.11(C)(3) and regarding receptacles it clearly states "shall have no other outlets."

210.23(A)(1) & (2) can be allowed but I have to say no light fixtures with the bathroom receptacles.
Click to expand...

210.11(C)(3) seems clear to me. I don't see any reason why lighting cannot be with the receptacle as long as it is in the same bathroom. And I always run one circuit per bathroom for the lights and rec
 
IMO, "that section" applies to 210.11(C)(3). The Exception to 210.11(C)(3) is the exception to "that section".

The restriction of 210.23(A) Exception only applies to "that section", not the Exception to "that section".
2005 NEC

210.11 Branch Circuits Required
Branch circuits for lighting and for appliances, including motor-operated appliances, shall be provided to supply the loads calculated in accordance with 220.10. In addition, branch circuits shall be provided for specific loads not covered by 220.10 where required elsewhere in this Code and for dwelling unit loads as specified in 210.11(C).

(C) Dwelling Units

(3) Bathroom Branch Circuits In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, at least one 20-ampere branch circuit shall be provided to supply bathroom receptacle outlet(s). Such circuits shall have no other outlets.

Exception: Where the 20-ampere circuit supplies a single bathroom, outlets for other equipment within the same bathroom shall be permitted to be supplied in accordance with 210.23(A)(1) and (A)(2).

FPN: See Examples D1(A), D1(B), D2(B), and D4(A) in Annex D.​
Click to expand...


​
 
al hildenbrand said:
IMO, "that section" applies to 210.11(C)(3). The Exception to 210.11(C)(3) is the exception to "that section".

The restriction of 210.23(A) Exception only applies to "that section", not the Exception to "that section".


​
Click to expand...
Clear as mud :roll:

210.11(C)(3)'s Exception:
"where the 20-ampere circuit supplies a single bathroom, outlets for other equipment within the same bathroom shall be permitted to be supplied in accordance with 210.23(A)."
Click to expand...
These "outlets for other equipment" are [can be] those listed in 210.23(A)(1) & (2) only. Because 210.11(C)(3)'s exception has to be "in accordance with" 210.23(A) which includes [can include] 210.23(A)'s exception that clearly says "shall supply only receptacle outlets specified in that section [bathrooms 210.11(C)(3)]".

The wording between 210.11(C)(3) & 210.23(A) is ambiguous.
 
radiopet said:
So are you saying "Exceptions" within a section are not part of that section?
Click to expand...
Nope, not at all.

I'm saying an exception is an "exception to the section".
 
tryinghard said:
Same reasons why small appliance and laundry branch circuit receptacles can't, as per 210.23(A)
Click to expand...

So do we just ignore this:

(3) Bathroom Branch Circuits In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, at least one 20-ampere branch circuit shall be provided to supply bathroom receptacle outlet(s). Such circuits shall have no other outlets.

Exception: Where the 20-ampere circuit supplies a single bathroom, outlets for other equipment within the same bathroom shall be permitted to be supplied in accordance with 210.23(A)(1) and (A)(2).

This is the way I wire every bathroom. One circuit per bathroom that runs everything.(unless it is really big) Does anybody else do this?
 
C3PO said:
So do we just ignore this:

(3) Bathroom Branch Circuits In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, at least one 20-ampere branch circuit shall be provided to supply bathroom receptacle outlet(s). Such circuits shall have no other outlets.

Exception: Where the 20-ampere circuit supplies a single bathroom, outlets for other equipment within the same bathroom shall be permitted to be supplied in accordance with 210.23(A) ?
Click to expand...

No you do not ignore it, you do have to finish by continuing to 210.23(A) because some outlets for other equipment are permitted to be supplied in accordance with 210.23(A). The other equipment referred to in the exception is for 210.23(A)'s (1) & (2) equipment not lighting.

So going to 210.23(A) - to be in accordance with it - we are told bathroom branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(3) shall supply ONLY the receptacle outlets specified in 210.11(C)(3), this section does not allow any other outlets besides receptacles.
 
C3PO said:
This is the way I wire every bathroom. One circuit per bathroom that runs everything.(unless it is really big) Does anybody else do this?
Click to expand...
The State of Minnesota Department of Labor and Industry Electrical Licensing and Inspection approves this installation when done.
 
tryinghard said:
No you do not ignore it, you do have to finish by continuing to 210.23(A) because some outlets for other equipment are permitted to be supplied in accordance with 210.23(A). The other equipment referred to in the exception is for 210.23(A)'s (1) & (2) equipment not lighting.
Click to expand...
But 210.11(C)(3) Exception doesn't say in accordance with 210.23(A), it says in accordance with 210.23(A)(1) and 210.23(A)(2). So 210.11(C)(3) Exception is not referencing the 210.23(A) Exception that appears in the text just before 210.23(A)(1).

I read "in accordance with" to mean "subject to the requirements of". So 210.11(C)(3) Exception permits any other equipment, as long as 210.23(A)(1) and 210.23(A)(2) are satisfied--not just equipment mentioned in 210.23(A)(1) and 210.23(A)(2). Thus supplying luminaires is OK.

Yours, Wayne
 
Interesting, 2002 simply say's in the exception to 210.11(C) "supplied in accordance with 210.23(A)."

Then in 2005 the same exception is changed to say more specifically "supplied in accordance with 210.23(A)(1) and (2)." Neither of these refers to including lighting outlets, in fact (2) says other than luminaires (light fixtures).
 
Tryinghard,

The "rule" in section 210.23(A) describes Permissible Loads on a 15 & 20 A circuit and says "lighting units or other utilization equipment, or a combination of both".

If this section {210.23(A)}, the "rule", were to stand alone it would be in conflict with the "rule" in section 210.11(C)(3).

To remove the conflict, an Exception to the rule in section 210.23(A) is added to restrict 210.23(A) 's apparent permission for "lighting units" when one is designing the permissible loads on a branch circuit that can only have receptacle outlets.

The Exception to the rule of section 210.23(A) is NOT an Exception to the Exception to the rule of section 210.11(C)(3).

Take a look at the NEC Style Manual 3.1.4 on page Nine.

An Exception applies to a rule, not to another Exception.
 
210.11(C)'s exception does not referance 210.23(A)

210.11(C)'s exception ONLY referances 210.23(A)(1) & (2)

Read (1) & (2) and see if lighting is stipulated as allowed with the bathroom receptacles. Read (1) & (2) and note what they DO say about lighting.

Exactly what wording is used in (1) & [or] (2) that allows lighting with the bathroom receptacles?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top