Art. 410.4 D

[Dennis Alwon]

210.11(C)'s exception does not referance 210.23(A)

210.11(C)'s exception ONLY referances 210.23(A)(1) & (2)

Read (1) & (2) and see if lighting is stipulated as allowed with the bathroom receptacles. Read (1) & (2) and note what they DO say about lighting.

Exactly what wording is used in (1) & [or] (2) that allows lighting with the bathroom receptacles?

You don't need to reference 210.23 at all. 210.11(C) except. says if it is fed by a single 20 amp recep. outlets for other equip....

The definition of equipment will show you that lights are considered as equipment

 

[al hildenbrand]

210.11(C)'s exception ONLY referances 210.23(A)(1) & (2)

. . .

Exactly what wording is used in (1) & [or] (2) that allows lighting with the bathroom receptacles?

210.23(A)(1) and 210.23(A)(2) are about "ratings" of permissible loads. Not types of outlets.

The exact wording in 210.23 is "loads". Because it gives the rules for the loading of a branch circuit (Article 210 is "Branch Circuits") the exact wording of 210.23 tells me about the Watts at the "outlets" specified in 210.11(C)(3).

 

[tryinghard]

I am not one of those who is committed to keeping lighting and receptacle circuits separate.

My point in pressing is 210.11(C)'s exception is ambiguous; it does not clearly say one can include lighting/luminaries with bathroom receptacles and it can be understood as not allowed.

 

[al hildenbrand]

210.11(C)'s exception is ambiguous; it does not clearly say one can include lighting/luminaries with bathroom receptacles and it can be understood as not allowed.

How?

Read the Article 100 Definition of:

1. Outlet
2. Receptacle outlet
3. Lighting outlet.

"Outlet" is trump. Receptacle and lighting outlets are special forms of "outlet".

When 210.11(C)(3) Exception says "outlets" for other equipment, it means "outlets". . .that is, smoke detectors, fans, luminaires, receptacles, cord and plug motors, hard wired motors, the works. . .just so long as the load on the branch circuit is within bounds of 210.23.

 

[tryinghard]

How?

Read the Article 100 Definition of:

1. Outlet
2. Receptacle outlet
3. Lighting outlet.

"Outlet" is trump. Receptacle and lighting outlets are special forms of "outlet".

When 210.11(C)(3) Exception says "outlets" for other equipment, it means "outlets". . .that is, smoke detectors, fans, luminaires, receptacles, cord and plug motors, hard wired motors, the works. . .just so long as the load on the branch circuit is within bounds of 210.23.

I understand what an outlet is!

I also understand 210.11(C)(3)'s exception omits the wording lighting or luminaire.

I also understand 210.11(C)(3)'s exception in 02 stated:
"shall be permitted to be supplied in accordance with 210.23(A)" and in 05 changes more specifically to say "to be supplied in accordance with 210.23(A)(1) & (2)."

I also understand to be in accordance (agreement; conformity: in accordance with the rules) with 210.23(A)(1) & (2) is ambiguous in the belief that the exception in 210.11(C) is for lighting and the exception in 210.23(A) may not count in this light.

I also understand 210.11(C)'s exception can say "...a single bathroom, lighting outlets and other equipment...shall be permitted..."

I do understand how to eliminate the ambiguity, I do not understand how to convey this any differently to you.

 

[iwire]

When 210.11(C)(3) Exception says "outlets" for other equipment, it means "outlets". . .that is, smoke detectors, fans, luminaires, receptacles, cord and plug motors, hard wired motors, the works. . .just so long as the load on the branch circuit is within bounds of 210.23.

I agree 100% with Al.

 

[tryinghard]

I have been trying to reveal ambiguity; I am not saying lighting outlets shared with the bath receptacles is wrong. I believe the 05 changed to be more specific from (A) only to (A)(1) & (2) was to bypass the exception of 210.23(A), but that's just my opinion. In order to see the ambiguity one must be able to look at all angles not just one.

But hay a 10A jet tub can share the bathroom receptacle circuit as well and remain code compliant.